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SRF Walrus > SRF Teachings and Ideals > Changing the AY's comments on Lay Member life choices
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etzchaim Registered User (2/10/03 9:33 am) Reply	Re: Guru means teacher and also, the planet Jupiter! I feel so bad that Yogananda, Sri Yukteswar and Lahiri Mahasaya had to suffer through a lifetime of following false 'Gurus' because their 'Gurus' were embodied! In all seriousness, though, Astral 7's comments would really be very funny if it did not involve the attempt to lead sincere devotees down a path a spiritual delusion. What a shame.
Lobo Registered User (2/10/03 11:43 am) Reply	Re: Guru means teacher and also, the planet Jupiter! Etzchaim, As a 30 year + member of SRF I want to say that Astral 7 speaks for himself. Please don't think that all members share, or even agree with, his views; which appear to be nothing more than SRF dogma, post-Yogananda. Yogananda, as I now understand him, was a very gracious, loving, kind man. He loved and appreciated all sorts of people, and would not allow his followers to put down other's religions or beliefs, quoting the phrase, "don't chop down another's head to make yourself look bigger." SRF itself seems to be undergoing a sort of contraction, philosophically. A hardening of the official dogma, meant as I see it to enforce "loyalty" (read: tithes), in an effort to become the Church of the New Age. I should hasten to add that Yogananda himself never said SRF would "spread like wildfire" throughout the world. What he did say was that the "work" would spread like wildfire throughout the world. The work was, is, and will forever be (according to PY) kriya yoga + devotion, leading to the realization of the Ever-Present Emptiness called God. Further what Astral seems to be upset with is others are teaching kriya, outside of SRF, claiming some (however nebulous) connection to PY. Again this goes to the control issue so very important to today's SRF, and does not necessarily mean that PY would have the same views. The work remember is kriya yoga.
etzchaim Registered User (2/10/03 12:56 pm) Reply	Re: Guru means teacher and also, the planet Jupiter! Lobo, please don't think that my response was directed towards Yogananda and his sincere devotees. I am not used to being spoken to by someone who claims to be practicing Kriya, as Astral 7 has spoken. I expect this from Fundamentalist Christians. The presumptuousness and ignorance is startling. I realize that Astral 7 represents the problem that SRF is experiencing (re: SRF Dogma) and I know from my Guru what the true nature of Yogananda's teaching was, so I can only feel sadness at the situation and pray for the protection and healing of the people who are being hurt. Believe me, I know that the work will continue to grow, I see it in these pages, in my own Temple and other groups around the world. I just wasn't expecting the see SRF fall into fundamentalist darkness. It's the people I'm concerned about. Please help and truly support each other. The organization does not matter. The flame of Kriya is carried within us. Etz
chela2020 Registered User (2/10/03 1:55 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:21 pm
chuckle chela Registered User (2/10/03 10:40 pm) Reply	Another beauty from chela2020 Right on, sister! I was very heartened by what Daya Mata wrote to you. I think it was the perfect response, and you had the courage to follow your own heart. I think you have a lot of wisdom gained from experience. I'm learning a lot from you. thanks!
astral7 Registered User (2/11/03 11:31 am) Reply	Re: Guru means fully enlightened teacher To all fine Walrussing devotees, and to those here for who knows what purpose? Some of your imaginations seem to still be wandering among the mist of what you are still wishing you knew about me, or especially about Self-Realization Fellowship. Even if you knew my name and social # , be assured – I, like most persons, am not that easy to know. Of course there are all these wannabe virtuosos here who know all about SRF and Yogananda – or the lack of, and that was why they went through periods of frustration and disappointment. As you are now claiming to know more that Self-Realization Fellowship about Yogananda and all else, why did you leave because nobody was stroking your ego and holding your hand. Yet there are still some here who are learning through their own sincerity. It is a great bunch that shares ideas and understanding, and an immature bunch that spews only criticism and false comments about others they may fear. The first bunch learns a great deal from each other. The reasons for the frustration of most devotees that go to SRF might be that some of them are still learning to read and listen, while joining without knowing even what they were looking for, or worst of all expecting the organization to be as perfect as the master. Paramahansa Yogananda used say, “if you want to see an example, become one yourself.” When they become frustrated from wrong attitude, not realizing that you should come to this path with a sense of self-responsibility for your spiritual life, some go sour on what’ around them. Whether the Guru is in body or not has no bearing on the progress of the mature student who loyally works with his/her Gurus teachings and supports His work in various ways. It is unfortunate that so many searching devotees imagine that they can recognize one who is more than just a teacher. When they are in a large group they get caught up in the charisma [not of the teacher] but more of group enthusiasm. Of course if the teacher says he has been directed by Babaji or has the "real kriya yoga", the neophyte devotee goes into an immediate mental/emotional excitement or daze. Which they interpret to be a divine exaltation or darshan. I see some persons on this board have eaten up the medias shallow line on a guru merely being a half-expert on any subject in the world. It would help if you got away from popular company-line thinking, and came to a truly individual understanding of this subject. One thing is obvious here - you won't get that from your teacher if he/she is not a Guru [enlightened teacher] while their followers are still blindly worshipping the teacher as such. Better yet read what Gurus like the ones in Autobiography of a Yogi say about the Guru. Usually by the fifth reading most get the idea as it says in the Yogic tradition – “you may have many teachers but only one Guru.” Regards and Respect Astral.7
username Registered User (2/11/03 1:41 pm) Reply	Astral 7 What I object to in your posts is your lack of sharing YOUR own experience, but rather making up generalizations about what everyone else is doing. And excuses for SRF doing what they are doing and (if you are not from SRF) then made up reasons and explanations as to why they do the things they do. Share your personal experience.
etzchaim Registered User (2/11/03 4:44 pm) Reply	Re: Astral 7 I would like to thank you, Astral 7, for a true pearl of wisdom! I have been repeating your words: "I, like most persons, am not that easy to know" over and over, and I feel you are really onto something here! Etz
etzchaim Registered User (2/11/03 5:47 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Chela2020, when I first read your post, I was still processing, and you helped me to relieve a bit of the strain my heart and brain was in. I too have had to leave behind a restricted and ethnocentric version of religion (a particular variant of Judaism), You put things back into perspective for me, and in a very kind and loving way. I truly hope that you have found happiness. Etz
chela2020 Registered User (2/12/03 3:53 am) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:22 pm
etzchaim Registered User (2/13/03 9:57 am) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Chela20/20, "Your path is a very interesting one, being tantra." Yes, it's not for everyone and it's a very misunderstood approach, but then, trying to force the "right" way to understand things often produces the opposite results, and may actually be coming from the opposite place from where we think we are coming from... Alas! I'm talking in obscurities! I think I actually learn best when I'm interacting with people who have different beliefs from me as long as the conversation remains respectful and open and we are not talking AT each other. It's easier to get out of my 'comfort zone' and take a look at my own limitations and issues. As the saying goes - What I'm bothered the most by in other people is exactly what I need to work on myself. "I like not being told what to think, what to accept, what to discard as to teachings, etc. I like how everyone thinks for themselves and so have different opinions, sometimes even opposing ones, and this includes the Swamis." Yes! I hear that! I've been thinking about the nature of "orthodoxy" and the need to feel that whatever a person is doing is 'right' and superior to what other people are doing. I remember being in a class at one of the Rabbis houses that I used to frequent. The Rabbis wife was giving a class on Chassidus, which is a type of mystical teaching. She was talking about how when a Jewish person reached a high level of saintliness, their bodies do not decompose after death. There have been certain saints who, when their graves have been exhumed (often for reburial in Israel), have not decomposed. This, of course, reminded me of Yogananda, so I told her that there was a Hindu man whose body also didn't decompose. She quickly told me that that was impossible, because he wasn't a Jew. I kept my mouth shut after that, but it was the beginning of the end for me and orthodoxy. I left completely only about half a year ago. It's very difficult to 'let go' when you are in a state of disillusionment, but I think it is better to let go of the illusions, despite the pain and feelings of being 'lost at sea'. In my case, the illusions themselves were masks that covered up parts of myself I was afraid to look at and insecurities that I needed to cope with and move beyond. It was a 'comfort zone'. You mentioned a friend's husband who is a Tantrist. Is it the same kind: Abhinavagupta's Trika Shaivism? (if he knows what 'Spanda' is, he is probably connected to the same). Blessings, Etz
chela2020 Registered User (2/13/03 12:50 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:22 pm
chrisparis Registered User (2/13/03 2:35 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Dear Chela, I am struggling with how to phrase this the right way. There may be many reasons to believe in PY's sainthood, but the non-decomposing of his body is definitely not one of them. It is documented that PY was embalmed the day after his death, and his body was kept under a heavy crystal lid for the 20 days it was on visitation, effectively preventing air from reaching the skin. There is nothing mysterious about the state of preservation of his body. There are many stories of a miraculous nature surrounding PY, and, taken together, these may be a reason to believe he really was a saint. AND it is also true that there are documented cases of extraordinary preservation in other religions and cultures in association with saints. Unfortunately, in as far as Paramahansa Yogananda is concerned, this can't be taken as evidence. What really happened was deception, a deception that continues to this day. This was NOT the doing of the guru, let me hasten to add, and I am NOT saying this is proof that PY wasn't a saint, but I AM saying that it can't be used as evidence of his sainthood.
etzchaim Registered User (2/16/03 12:11 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Perhaps the best way to solve alot of issues is to exhume the body, see what state it's in, and do the difinitive paternity test...but I'm not holding my breath. It's my understanding that embalming is common procedure and only slows down the decay. Neither Muslim nor Jewish burial societies do it because it is considered a desecration of the body. I tried to do some research on it to find out how long the decay is delayed, but short of calling up a mortician, there is only basic info out there (I gave up the research when my stomach started to turn and I was beginning to feel morbid
etzchaim Registered User (2/16/03 12:16 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Perhaps the best way to solve alot of issues is to exhume the body, see what state it's in, and do the difinitive paternity test...but I'm not holding my breath. It's my understanding that embalming is common procedure and only slows down the decay, though neither Muslim nor Jewish burial societies do it because it is considered a desecration of the body. I tried to do some research on it to find out how long the decay is delayed, but short of calling up a mortician, there is only basic info out there (I gave up the research when my stomach started to turn and I was beginning to feel a bit morbid). The delay period varies with the types of chemicals used. Because of how common it was and is to embalm, could this be more a deception of credulity as opposed to a calculated deception (if it is a deception at all, I should add, as I have no 'beliefs' or emotional needs wrapped up in this, either way)? I agree that this is not what makes a saint, and is more in line with what SRFlongago would call the "magic of Maya". Etz
username Registered User (2/16/03 6:24 pm) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Thanks for replying to this message because I was looking for it but since there are so many messages on this board, I was unable to find it. Bodies are embalmed and shown for wakes for 3 days in the US. The wake sometimes doesn't happen for 2 or so days after the death. And the body is in good enough shape for presentation to the public. So... if Yogananda was EMBALMED, this seems like another farce that SRF has done to its members. Of course, the body wouldn't decompose. I thought the body was NOT embalmed. I now put this in the same category as SRF telling me Yogananda was Gandhi's guru...... A lie meant to deceive innocent people into following the SRF path.
chela2020 Registered User (2/20/03 7:25 am) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 7/1/03 5:23 pm
etzchaim Registered User (2/20/03 8:59 am) Reply	Re: Guru doesn't mean fully enlightened teacher Chela20/20, Thanks. I think 'Varma' is the same as 'Vama' (?), which means "left" or "left-turning". This came out of the Kaula tradition, which is a Shakti form. Abhinava's school is related, a Shiva form, but right-hand, and nearly all internal, much like most of the Tibetan schools. It's difficult to actually find a good set of Kaula practices that have not been 'commercialized' for public consumption - mostly more in the line of thrill seeking rather than God seeking, so I'm glad to hear of the 'non-public' aspect. They are easy to corrupt and easy to be thrown off in. Gives me some hope... Etz

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