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SRF Walrus > SRF Teachings and Ideals > Are the teachings bad?
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redpurusha Registered User (11/4/03 8:30 am) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer etz, this history lesson on William the Conqueror or "William the B_stard" as some prefer to call him, with character analysis concentrating on his negative traits, only points to the effectiveness of kriya or pranayama. You take someone like William the Conqueror, with his indominable will and also violent temper, and you redirect his energies from conquering the world, to conquering spiritual pursuits, and you get a loving yet stern master like P. Yogananda? Even for those who heavily critisize or see fault in P.Y., you got to admit, that if these two are the same soul, then P.Y. made drastic spiritual progress in between that lifetime and this one. And how would he have been able to accomplish this? My guess would be, by accelerating his evolution through kriya meditation. An allegation can be made that he was also John the Baptist, then what kind of progress or lack of progress did he make from that life to that of William's? But we have little historical information on John the Baptist to make any accurate assessment. In that life, he was the one being beheaded, if I remember my new testament well. John the Baptist... William the Conqueror... P. Yogananda the Yogi?
etzchaim Registered User (11/4/03 10:57 am) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer Redpurusha, I totally agree with you! I have this odd need to place the Masters into the world of humanity, otherwise, there is a gulf between us and them, and I think that THAT gulf, and the feelings of 'lack of worthiness' on anyones part, are completely inappropriate to the Path of Kriya Yoga.
ranger20 Registered User (11/4/03 11:28 am) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer The general SRF scuttlebutt, and I believe the accounts of Kriyananda, is that PY was Arjuna in the far past, so the warrior experience is there, but what surprised people is that the historical life of William would seem to represent a devolution. Who knows, Kali yuga, playing where Divine Mother put him? Also, no one, I think, has ever suggested he was John the Baptist. Rather I quoted Abbot George Burke, in "An Eagle's Flight," as asserting, based on his own inner realizations (take or leave), that he was John, "the beloved disciple," ie, the generally presumed writer of the Gospel of John. Burke's book is really interesting, and I may bring in a few quotes from it. He's a proto-Walrus. He moved to LA to live right near Hollywood temple in 1960, and left SRF to go to India ca 1962. He spotted some striking rewrites in early AY editions, some distortion of Master as a disciplinarian, and some silliness in the ashrams at that time. Although interesting, I don't take his or anyone else's inner realizations, at least from the page of a book, as hard evience. Edited by: ranger20 at: 11/4/03 11:28 am
dawnrays Registered User (11/4/03 12:44 pm) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer Ranger, I think if it's possible to have certain periods in your life where you "devolutionize" or "backslide" as a Baptist would say, then it's probably true that it could happen overall or partially in a particular life. It does appear that William left some to be desired in certain aspects of compassion to his foes and that his main strengths were determination and strength of purpose. I wonder if anybody here has read "The Art of War" by Sun Tsu? This is considered the essential hand book for military strategists as well as businessmen. In some aspects of war and politics, the trait of ruthlessness is considered an asset, not a flaw and an essential trait for the effective military general. For anybody who has not read it, this book is over two thousand years old and does not glorify war or warriors. It does in fact, see all actual, physical warfare as a failure (in diplomacy) and only an extreme last resort. Originally I thought this conversation was about whether it was a contradiction for a saint or a Master to be involved in military or political matters at all, not whether William the Conqueror had flaws or devolutionized. Obviously, the chance for this occurs in anybody's incarnation and it is the chance you take when you incarnate on a plane. It should only serve as further inspiration to us and a lesson not to hate ourselves for backsliding, however which way you look at it. In "The Path", Master refers to a previous incarnation of Hitler's as Alexander the Great. What I found even more suprising though, was Charles Linburg's previous incarnation of Abraham Lincoln. I never would have seen that. While Charles Linburg was a great man, he was extremely sympathetic to the Nazi regime and used his huge popularity and influence to campaign against our involvement in WWII. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/5/03 8:54 am
etzchaim Registered User (11/4/03 1:30 pm) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer "Originally I thought this conversation was about whether it was a contradiction for a saint or a Master to be involved in military or political matters at all, not whether William the Conqueror had flaws or devolutionized." Neither of these was really my intent. The issue I'm having is the idealization - the taking out of the realm of humanity - of someone who is a spiritual master, so that if something incongruous with his or her "perfection" comes up, efforts to either rationalize the problematic behaviour occur or the 'saint' is rejected. Much of this, on my part, was prompted by the the severe dissillusionment I'm seeing on the one hand and on the other, the attempt to 'make up a new reality' or mythologize out of the human, the people we are holding up as our examples. These are real people who've struggled with their own crap, just like we are struggling with ours, not Myths out of a book. That a human being can have really problematic elements within them and still keep going on to forge a union (yoga...) with God and move into enlightenment is heartening to me. When I make a mistake, I have a role model to look at who went through all of that too and I can just move on, learn and make corrections and not get hung up on my own imperfections. All of us have that potential for enlightenment, not just those souls who were famous holy dudes in the past. Edited by: etzchaim at: 11/4/03 1:31 pm
bsjones Registered User (11/4/03 1:39 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: William the Conquerer W hich makes me wonder - what is enlightenment? A samadhi experience? Something else?
dawnrays Registered User (11/4/03 1:53 pm) Reply	What is enlightenment? bsjones, I thought ugizralrite gave a really good little condensed explanation of nirbikalpa samadhi in "Mejda Won't Eat". He said something to the effect of your mind and heart being so full that you are less likely to be influenced and directed by outer discord and pleasures. This of course would also include being able to partake in sense pleasures without being destroyed by them. It was one of the best little gems I have ever seen on the Walrus. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/4/03 2:46 pm
ugizralrite Registered User (11/4/03 3:56 pm) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer Thank you. Glad it struck a chord.
needthestar Registered User (11/4/03 5:36 pm) Reply	Could it be? Maybe Yogananda's role as W.T.C. was just that...a role that he desired. Didn't he once say that he loved England? Maybe that "love" or desire for England was fulfilled by conquering it? Being born just for that cause....to "own" England. Yogananda didn't do anything half way....which sounds like the type of person it took to conquer England. If it was P.Y. he certainly played it to the fullest...burning, slashing and all....how pleased Mother Divine must have been with her actor in her triumphant play!?! Just a thought. Regarding "human" traits in Holy men/women: I have a tough time with this.....especially on the heals of the documentary about Jesus having a child with Mary of M. It's not that I want a "savior" that tap dances on this plane without feeling any effects of delusion, but I do have a hard time distinguishing what is acceptable behavior and what it not...and I need not drudge up what P.Y. has been accused of....we all know the accusations by now. I've come to believe that no one is "perfect"....and believe me that's a great stride for me, but at what point does one say....that is NOT how a true teacher acts. Where is the line drawn in the sand? By drawing a line in the sand one can easily end up drawing a box around oneself....which I've done many, many times. After a while my brain becomes a lump of mashed potatoes trying to figure it out logically...but meditating does seem to put things in perspective. I've come to terms with the VERY human accusations of P.Y. in my own way, which is neither here nor there for the rest of you. Suffice to say that by simply looking at a picture or two of P.Y. and St. Lynn has lead me beyond judging them....that twinkle in their eyes...or slight smile of wonderment and joy on their face cannot be judged (or grasped) by such a fool as I. Just a thought - thanks Edited by: needthestar at: 11/4/03 5:41 pm
redpurusha Registered User (11/5/03 7:16 am) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer ranger, Eagle's Flight is a great book and many of Burke's comments on SRF would fit right in on the Walrus. I've quoted some of them on this board earlier. Sorry, I don't have the book anymore and probably confused the John's. Either way, we don't have much info on either of these historical figures. You say Burke's inner realizations aren't hard evidence, but what is hard evidence then, or better evidence? I mean, we don't have video footage or eye-witnesses, and unless you were there yourself or you had a face-to-face encounter with God explaining all this to you (your own inner realizations), the best we could do, is go by the word of seemingly credible souls. I think before we have our own direct experiences that leave us with little or no doubt, a healthy balance between trust in other's experiences and complete skepticism is the best way to go. In the beginning of the path, most of the devotee's knowledge comes from other's experiences. Millions have been inspired by the detailed commentaries of spiritual truths, such as in the Autobiography of a Yogi, but I see what you are saying. etz, I feel the same way about seeing the humanity in these masters, how their diviniy unfolded over time and how they faced many struggles we face. Edited by: redpurusha at: 11/5/03 9:28 am
ranger20 Registered User (11/5/03 8:55 am) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer I found "Eagle's Flight" in the used book sellers section of Amazon. They had several copies when I ordered it, 5-6 weeks ago. Since then, I've found abebooks.com, which has an even wider selection. I was able to get a 1952 Philosophical Library edition of the AY, which I'll also have comments on after a bit. *Quote:* You say Burke's inner realizations aren't hard evidence, but what is hard evidence then, or better evidence? Good question, and in the Walrus context, it means to me a certain skepticism (which is quite consistent with PY's early explorations in India). For example, some statements or themes seem to be genuinely those of Master, either in the writings or things repeated by various direct disciples. Other claims have (here) been appropriately called into question - like "all SRF presidents will be self-realized." It is pretty certain that Master did not say that publically, and it is pretty certain that the claim was not made by SRF until sometime after Rajasi. It is possible that he left it as private instruction to the leadership, and it is possible that he communicated it to the leadership from the astral, but so far I see no "hard evidence" that this discription of the stature of the president was made by PY. Edited by: ranger20 at: 11/5/03 8:56 am
redpurusha Registered User (11/5/03 9:43 am) Reply	Re: William the Conquerer Wow, the 1952 Philosophical Library edition of the AY, that's been on my list, that's great for you. I'll be looking for it.
ranger20 Registered User (11/5/03 9:50 am) Reply	Re: Could it be? *Quote:* Regarding "human" traits in Holy men/women: I have a tough time with this.....especially on the heals of the documentary about Jesus having a child with Mary of M. It's not that I want a "savior" that tap dances on this plane without feeling any effects of delusion, but I do have a hard time distinguishing what is acceptable behavior and what it not... FYI, if you haven't read The daVinci Code I can recommend it as one of the most exciting books I've read in a long while. A real old fashioned page turner, and this aside from the speculative content, though as one who has been interested in Grail legends and Gnostic gospels for some time, I found the speculations helped weave a great story, regardless of their historical veracity. I think maybe etzchaim has, at the root of this thread, a very valid point. Where do our expectations of "perfection" come from, and while I'm at it, what are my (perhaps unexamined) expectations of the way a Holy Man should act? Just think of Lahiri's friend in the AY, Trailanga Swami, who was presented as 300 pounds of buck naked enlightenment! (Come on, I can't be the only one who has sometimes wished he'd show up up at Convocation ). Again, where do my ideas of perfection come from? As I am reviewing old editions of the Autobiography, I am coming to believe that the sanitized expectations I think I carry, of what "enlightened behavior" looks like is more an artifact of SRF, than what Master said, or the accounts we have of the way saints and avatars have actually behaved. My current reading of the Gospels, with some other texts to help add historical context, show Jesus as repeatedly behaving in shocking ways, even in the parables. "Good Samaritan," was instant cognitive disonance to the original audience! And I guess I think too, of what he seeme to say to Nicodemas, about his expectations of people with at least some degree of realization: *Quote:* "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." John 3, 8 Or as Gandalf warned Frodo, "Do not enquire too deeply into the way of wizards, for they are subtle..." Edited by: ranger20 at: 11/5/03 9:53 am
needthestar Registered User (11/5/03 12:46 pm) Reply	Re: Could it be? Ranger, thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's hard for me to put in words what I mean....without sounding superior or spiritually uppity....please do not misinterpret what I am now posting as if I might think I have greater insight on this matter...these are thoughts of a very flawed person. There are traits within myself that easily waver under "mammon" cravings. I expect this from myself and yet strive to curb those cravings with the intent of spiritual progress. I.E. eating meat, insatiable sex drive, intake of drink and drug etc. Maybe I'm naive in thinking that a Master would loose desire in partaking in such activities after delving in the infinite.....say for example what if Sri Yukteswar joined P.Y.'s friend in taking a smoke while viewing the Himalayas? What impression would that have left on an spiritually underdeveloped P.Y.? I understand the theory that they are "human" and we would be able to more easily connect with them. Even though I was raised a strict protestant (THERE lies the problem!! ) I can deal with Jesus having a child with Mary M.....BUT I have a very large problem with P.Y. accused of running a brothel like ashram or harem according to "legitimate sources". Why? 1) Because he specifically told his monks not to partake in such activities...to abstain from sex if unmarried. I expect my teacher to apply his teachings to his own life. 2) If P.Y. did have a child, and that child was cast into the hellish life as he claims to have lived, then P.Y. not only shirked his earthly responsibilities as a father/mate but one that claims to care for humanity as a whole. B.E. had to endure a horrible life...is that the doings of a master? There is a very large contradiction between teachings and setting an example. Didn't P.Y. say that his Master "would not ask anything of a disciple that he couldn't or wouldn't do himself"? See, it's not just sex...but the focus shifts to living a lie. In my eyes a lie is much more damaging than sex...of course they can be both the same given the circumstance. (an affair for example) The lie therefore begins to undermine everything....the lectures, the lessons etc. and I therefore can fairly ask...what is the truth and what is a lie?? Everything from there on out is up for debate and questioning. I don't think a Master would want that...why add the confusion to an already confused soul? I can deal with a 300lb naked God Filled saint tiptoeing on a jail cell (although I'm not sure I would want to see it! ) I can deal with a Master that occasionally eats meat or as a teenager snuck food into his meditation chamber. ( is that REALLY gluttonus??) I can deal with a Master in a solid loving relationship having a child.....even out of wedlock. BUT I have to draw a line with a Master that does not live what he taught. Again I ask...where do we draw the line?...what is acceptable from a teacher and what is not? What is the difference between the enlightened and a "peace loving hippie"? When I draw that line am I on the verge of becoming a Pharisee.....bent on the law of what is perfection and what is not? For me, and I'm only speaking for myself, perfection comes from the hope that someday I'll be beyond all the habits, hang ups and desires that posses me now. IF (and that's a big IF) I achieve that...dare I say I've reached perfection? I won't, but maybe you can see where I'm coming from. There are two sides to the coin in the "perfect" master. One side sets an example.....to rise as far above what I already am. The flip side makes that task seem impossible...and ends in a "why should I even try?" feeling. Does is boil down to being of positive or negative attitude? I don't know. I'll be the first to admit after worshiping the thoroughly arranged and rearranged, scrubbed and polished Jesus Christ for 20 plus years that I'd been schnookered, and am trying to avoid that whole scenario again. So maybe my question hasn't been answered yet.....what is acceptable? IS it subjective? Maybe that's just an answer only each one of us can answer for ourselves. What I deem acceptable may be ludicrous to the rest of you and vice versa. Maybe the answer is SUPPOSED to be different for all of us?? Is that possible? If we were all to walk into a forest together we each would perceive the same forest differently I suppose. One would see nature working in peace and harmony. One would only see the dirt, weeds and unruly brush. One would be looking for a place to put a deer stand. (you can tell I'm from the Mid-West...a deer stand is a platform hunters put up high in a tree for a good shooting perspective with the intent to "bag" a deer) One would be looking for the right tree to use the bathroom behind ( o.k.....me. ) and so on and so on. I loved you comments...and the books you've mentioned. Thank you for taking the time to post. Loved the Frodo line, especially with the third installment approaching. Ranger can you tell me did Burke have contact with Y.P. or just SRF? I'm highly interested in that book - thanks for the heads up. Thanks again for posting and sharing your thoughts and for listening to the thoughts of a fool! Edited by: needthestar at: 11/5/03 12:51 pm
soulcircle Registered User (11/5/03 1:24 pm) Reply	rocking and rolling WOW Holy @#%$ Now you guys are rocking and rolling I just spent some time hiking in the redwoods In community...... you, the trees, the hunters and the deer, we are all together....I am with each of you Like the moss not only on the rocks and moist soil Like the moss also hanging from tree branches in the northwest magical mushroom forest Like the sunlight streaming filtered to the forest flower Through centuries/ millenium-old trees Like the mean and divisive comments sometimes in here Like the storm, the cold, the dark windy rainy forest nites Like "living cathedrals" [PY's phrase describing redwoods] Like the springs, rivers and ocean the woods border on Your forest is wild, subtle, largely gone and destroyed Our forest is a lie at times An unescapable wonder of sunsets and sunrises And in this walrus thread is life, the murmur of the breeze The soaring climax of the osprey and falcon The ancient harmony of fish migrations The death, the sad death of a planet, or certainly the cancers The dance of the chipmunk And my gratitude to all of you
ranger20 Registered User (11/5/03 2:08 pm) Reply	Re: Could it be? needthestar, Too many ideas in your post to answer. First though, I guess I've just skimmed over all the posts of PY running a harem, and having a child, because (1) it just doesn't sound in character, and (2) it's not what I'm rather passionately digging through the Walrus and old editions of the Autobiography and other books to find out. You write, I have to draw a line with a Master that does not live what he taught, and what I'm trying to clarify is what did he teach? I think he taught that our main business here is to find God, and that "Kriya yoga plus devotion" is the best means that he had found during extensive explorations in India. I think that the sense of guilt SRF people tend to experience is an add on (you're in double trouble, coming from a "strict protestant" background!) I've even found one tiny little footnote in the AY (I'll post it when I get a chance) that is kind of a touchstone of that for me. In all the editions Master touched, the footnote contains a rather mild quote from Matthew, pointing toward giving importance to God. From the first SRF edition, it is changed to a more harsh quote in Matthew, the kind of "ideal" that few can live up to. And that's just a tiny little footnote. Multiply that by thousands of pages of material, with every one of those pages having been potentially "improved or updated" by people other than Master, and what do you have? Well, having a Jungian background, I think one thing you have in SRF is a collective denial of the shadow, with the results amply visible on this board - the SRF shadow oozing out everywhere, like the old Saturday matinee version of "The Blob." I don't want to play that game in my own life anymore. I first heard of Burke's book on this board, and it caught my attention because the situation he described for himself was close to where I found myself in the Spring, when I found the Walrus. He writes of attending SRF services, and at the same time, going to Christian services for communion, but knowing that his participation in one would bar him from full "membership" in the other. (eventually he went to India, to the ashram of Ananda Moyee Ma, before returning to this country to find his real spiritual identity in Eastern Orthodox Christianity). Burke never knew PY in form, but had a strong meditative sense of his character. He writes of one dramatic moment when he heard an SRF minister who "described Master mostly in terms of his frequent 'scoldings'." Feeling upset, he went next door, to the Hollywood Temple cafe, and put it to an elderly nun, who had been a direct discople. She told him unequivocally that Master was not like that at all, and said, "at least we have our inner attunement." In addition to the fact that any articulate and sincere account of the trial and error of spiritual searching has things of interest to me, Burke has a lot to say, as one of the first people I'm aware of, to begin to see a divergence between the SRF Master envisioned, and what SRF has become. Some of his material is upsetting. Burke says that Master told others that because of institutional mistakes, "In three generations it will be as if I was never here, but the seed will have been planted." Quite a bit different from "millions will come" to the religion of the ascending age! Who do you believe? I guess in such a case I try to entertain both as possibilities. And focus, as the nun said, on inner attunement, aided by a few of the writings I believe are trustworthy, like early editions of the AY and the red Whispers. And spending time outdoors, and playing with the dog, and murder mysteries, and attending Christian churches without guilt, and .... Edited by: ranger20 at: 11/5/03 2:14 pm
bsjones Registered User (11/5/03 2:31 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Could it be? YEAH. This is all such good stuff. I'm glad I found you people!
soulcircle Registered User (11/5/03 3:44 pm) Reply	bsjones.....welcome aboard the feelings are mutual
needthestar Registered User (11/5/03 4:00 pm) Reply	Re: Could it be? Ranger, Please accept my apologies if I seemed overbearing...and if I seemed to point the thrust of everything at you directly..that wasn't my intention. Sorry to bombard you with so much..it all just kind of spilled out. Your posts are very well put together, I'd like to address a couple of parts that spoke directly to my heart: You mentioned: "I'm trying to clarify is what did he teach? I think he taught that our main business here is to find God, and that "Kriya yoga plus devotion" is the best means that he had found during extensive explorations in India." Well said and P.Y. in a very concise nutshell. I agree wholeheartedly. I recently picked up A.O.Y. first edition. There IS a big difference, not just in exact quotes, but even the vibrations seemed different to me. P.Y. seemed much more...real to me in the first edition. "He writes of attending SRF services, and at the same time, going to Christian services for communion, but knowing that his participation in one would bar him from full "membership" in the other" I went through the same thing. When I discovered SRF I was attending a Presbyterian church. I had to endure the pastor making wise cracks about people meditating on the "OM" as he made a ridiculous noise accompanied by an even more ridiculous facial gestures. On the other hand I had SRF telling me that I was not to belong to any other "church"...thus I was living a lie. Since then - thanks to boards such as this - I found P.Y. had no desire to start another church or religion and often encouraged others to stay within their own churches if so inclined. So who was living the lie? I have since quit both...my church is my heart...or maybe my meditation chamber under our stairwell I suppose. "I think one thing you have in SRF is a collective denial of the shadow" It's remarkable how scrubbed and polished they've become within 50 years. Before us is unfolding what exactly happened to the "church" that evolved from Jesus' teachings. At least I think so. "an SRF minister who "described Master mostly in terms of his frequent 'scoldings'." Feeling upset, he went next door, to the Hollywood Temple cafe, and put it to an elderly nun, who had been a direct disciple. She told him unequivocally that Master was not like that at all, and said, 'at least we have our inner attunement.' " Her words speak volumes to me. Thank you for this information. This is exactly how I managed to set the "over turned apple cart" up right again....along with a very large lump of God's grace. "Some of his material is upsetting. Burke says that Master told others that because of institutional mistakes, "In three generations it will be as if I was never here, but the seed will have been planted." Quite a bit different from "millions will come" to the religion of the ascending age! Who do you believe?" I believe he was very right and reveals he was more than many give him credit for. That's an incredible quote. I recently came to conclusion that Master KNEW that SRF would go the way it has....despite those that claim him a lesser being for his "short sightedness" regarding it's current condition. SRF may end up only being a shell of what it used to be, but is it possible that promoting meditation can still lift mankind as a whole? I don't know. We, as a society, are just now rediscovering teachings of old....maybe that is their part? Here are some thoughts that touched my heart regarding this topic: I think of how he saved Daya Mata from the brink of death and Brother Bernard claiming "she is very important to the work". I have little doubt he knew how she would steer SRF...and yet he spared her life. It's very complex...but she's as much as a part of this as everyone else. Funny how the tight grip of her/SRf's hand has only made the "rogues" multiple and spread further.....a Divine plan I think....an unforeseen twist in the plot. I think of how he told M. Brown Dietz (sp?) to go and share Kriya with others...she replied "but what will the organization think?" and he replied "are you following ME or the organization". Already he was aware of its potential misuse of influence. I think of how he told both Norman Paulson and Donald Walters that they had "great work to do". Is it possible that D.W. was intended to be a thorn in the side of SRF from the beginning? Plus that fact that he openly promoted his "world wide communities" idea...in front of Oliver Black, Roy Eugene Davis and others that left to do just that? I'm fully convinced he WANTED these folks to get out from underneath the shadows of SRF in order to plant the seeds he had given them....and fulfill his wishes of the W.W.C. Again, thanks for such a powerful post...very well put...even for us in double trouble . I'm going to check into the book. I noticed a few times you mentioned posting changes you've picked up on....bring them on. I feel I'm getting the clearest picture I've had in about ...well six years since I started this venture. Peace Friend on the PATH Edited by: needthestar at: 11/5/03 4:12 pm
needthestar Registered User (11/5/03 4:17 pm) Reply	Re: rocking and rolling SoulCircle, My mind is reeling from such poetry: "The soaring climax of the osprey and falcon The ancient harmony of fish migrations" wonderful imagery.....overwhelmingly beautiful. I envy your meditaions within the "living cathedrals" peace

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