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etzchaim Registered User (10/29/03 1:57 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll "Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He also personally murdered a goodly number of people, including close relatives so as to not have too much competition in the realm of earthly power. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Didn't know that, but on the other hand, no real dissonance, since I'm not particularily invested in his good behavior." Actually, I was talking about his own cognitive dissonence. A religious murderer? Hmmmmm..... There was a big fall that apparently happened in his soul, or he would have been born as a man who bacame a Monk or, oddities of all oddities, a member of a royal household who didn't murder anyone! Remember, Caligula and Claudius were from the same crazy family. One was a lunatic and one was a good man. Choices occur in all time periods. (That was for Dawnrays, as well).
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 2:20 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll It's unfortunate that one can't always make the "pure" choice and sometimes it's only a lesser of two evils. The middle ages of course, were unbelievably brutal. Sometimes it's necessary for a person's karma to take a more active role (perhaps for the greater good) rather than to sit on the sidelines. Politics and governments unfortunately, have a great power and impact over people's lives, sometimes even more so than religeon. It does not mean they have "fallen". Unless one always wishes to play the role of the victomized party (which no one totally is), it is necessary to put principles into action sometimes. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/29/03 2:24 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 2:32 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Ranger, Oh really (and I mean this in a nice way) get over it! I actually have a walking and talking conscience (my husband) who now and then really berates me for using this board (a bunch of whiners!) But really, he's better adjusted than me. I think the more emotional types just get drawn into the circus. I will say I did have fun for a few years. I really have my husband and kids to thank for never volunteering though. We were such odd balls in srf (the Navy couple with the rowdy kids) and we never really fit in anyway. dawnrays
feelbetrayed Registered User (10/29/03 4:21 pm) Reply	*****SOULCIRCLE PLEASE DELETE YOUR POST ***** Such outrageous, idiotic irresponsibility compels me to respond to "soulcircle." In your 27 Oct 2003 post (pub78.ezboard.com/fsrfwal...ex=102)... 1) You publicly stated the name of someone who posted here in anonymity. Is it your ego thing to make sure everyone sees how clever you are to 'out' a person who sought to post anonymously? Point: It is NOT your right to do that! What's wrong with you? Mind your own business! Don't you exercise any self-control? Outrageous! 2) You re-floated old purely speculative (i.e.; worthless and malicious) gossip that Yogananda might have been sexing girls at Mt. Washington. Point: You can NOT truthfully publish that as fact! Please delete your garbage post before it misleads others. Also please refrain from cluttering up the board with fluff, which deters readers. Edited by: feelbetrayed at: 11/3/03 11:45 pm
ugizralrite Registered User (10/29/03 8:37 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Dawnrays wrote: "I am here writing today and not dead for many years because of it." My feelings are the same regarding the SRF lifebuoy in the form of the PY saga. The problem for me is that in the past year I have seen a business venture fail, my mother died with Alzheimer's, and Self-Realization Fellowship went from being the perfect albeit sterile Temple Mount to a seriously flawed institution. These reversals have left me a bit confused, especially the last, because unlike business or a parent who was ill for many years, SRF had been such a shining institution almost too perfect some might say, and suddenly the pr lies collapsed. So I think it is alright to come to this forum mumbling "wha' happened".
etzchaim Registered User (10/30/03 5:32 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll Dawnrays, it wasn't my point to get into an argument over the relative merits of William the Conqueror's actions. Yogananda himself said that he created a tremendous amount of karma in that lifetime and was still working it off. In fact, he said he would be working it off in future lifetimes. In my opinion, you live in a dream world where there can be nothing at all problematic where Yogananda is concerned. I prefer a more down to earth approach. I doubt you actually know much about the Conqueror's life, or about his motivations for going into England in the first place. From every historical account (which include accounts of which rulers WHERE actually religiously motivated) he appears to be moved far more by personal and family pride than anything bordering on the spiritual. An interest in the religious, particularly when it shows up after one has been dying slowly for months, was rather common in the Middle Ages. His choices before hand betray his actual motivatins. To me, that is the realistic picture. You prefer a dream world, and judging from what I actually have heard from you, it's not very much based in reality. I apologize for the reference to private conversation, but when you are telling people that it is better to follow their own understanding and that you do, some qualification appears to be necessary. I won't reveal any details, of course. I have tremendous respect for Yogananda and will continue to, but I don't need to paint over his flaws with rosy colors in order to have that respect. He stands on his own as a highly evolved human who struggled with his issues like all the rest of us. SRF was created by him, and while I don't blame him for some of it's current issues, I can see where many of them have grown from his very real issues. That doesn't negate the fact that I truly believe he was highly realized, just not perfect, and those imperfections have impacted his 'school of thought'. Perspective is just as necessary as unconditional love is, or why would we need the unconditional part?7 We can stay in our fantasies, or we can move on with a more realistic view of our experiences and the people who have helped shape them and grow in true consciousness, not dreams.
xmonk Registered User (10/30/03 6:01 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Dawnrays, As you did with SRF, perhaps you will one day see that the need for an intermediary between you and God is not needed. Religion has indoctrinated people with the notion that they are not worthy to approach God individually. EVERY religion has done this since day one. There has always been someone who has claimed to be favored by God, be His son, or been sent to save the masses and lead them back to God. They have all purported to have "special" powers and/or been capable of extraordinary fetes. Every religion has one of these fellows in order that their masses will blindly follow their edicts. Then, there is always some sacred scripture that tends to back up these edicts. When one finally sees through all this "magic" and discovers his individual ability to approach his heavenly father without all that baggage, then his life of freedom begins. God is our Heavenly Father. He loves us all equally. His love is without question and without end. We only need approach Him,as we would our earthly father, and freely discuss whatever we wish. There is absolutely no need to entangle ourselves with gurus and scriptures, and all of that. There has always been, at the bottom of every religion, large sums of money...faithfully given and tithed by people who believe that they are not worthy of approaching God on their own, that they need someone else to intercede for them. They feel guilt and they feel fear. That is what keeps these organizations and "special" people in business. Hopefully, one day you will recognize this fact. However, I realize that it won't happen until YOU make that decision. It's like withdrawing from alcohol, or a narcotic. Only when you decide that you have had enough of it all, will you feel that freedom that I mentioned. Good luck.
dawnrays Registered User (10/30/03 7:01 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll etzchaim, Well, I don't know much about William except that he was generally considered to be a great King. All said and done, he was also considered ahead of his time as far as having a generally fair minded attitude and was the author of "the Doomsday Books". He was a very wily, smart and ruthless warrior and King. It's not for us on the outside to decide exactly when and where he fell. I know it is not necessarily "bad" karma to wage what some consider to be "righteous warfare" and that being a monk is not always the correct or right choice for one's life. In fact, joining a religeous order to escape worldly responsiblities if you do not "have a calling" is one of the worst reasons for doing so and is why so many monastic careers do not work out. The warrior caste is traditionally the second highest caste after the brahman. Under it are the artisian and below that the business/tradesman at the lowest caste. Most spiritual aspirants in this life are at the warrior caste level. This of course is not always in the literal sense of the word. I don't think Master was perfect. I just wonder sometimes at people who seem a little obsessed with perceived flaws like "being unchilvalrous to women" or having a temper or whatever. I don't know where this is coming from. Master took in misfits and people who basically had nowhere to go his entire life. Gyanamata was an elderly woman in her 70's when her husband dropped her off there. She was sick and bedridden for much of her time at Mount Washinton. He often referred to her as a "goddess". Sister Parvati was dropped off there at the age of 14 by her father, begging Master to take her because nobody else would. Whole families stayed with him and I guess including your guru for a time. I don't know what to say when people seem to overlook selfless kindness (almost to the point of gullibility) to concentrate on flaws. It just goes without saying that people have them. Not to concentrate on them is not denying them, it's just not a big priority with me. You have bought these points up many, many times as if to make sure they sink in. There were many people who lived with Master for much longer than your guru did. I don't think he is lying, but these things don't seem to make the huge impression on others that they did on him. Most of his disciples were women also. They did not all live in a "dream world" either. Durga Ma wrote a very sweet and charming memior of herself and her life at Mount Washington. Guayana Mata also wrote one and published most of her letters to Master in it (she often wrote to him as much as three times a day). dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/31/03 4:02 am
redpurusha Registered User (10/30/03 7:07 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle The theory that PY was a disciple of all or some of the SRF line of gurus at one point, or at different levels of existence (astral, etc) only adds to my interest in him and gives him even more credibility. It would be fitting for him to be entrusted with the mission that he was given (including with it, bringing all of these masters' teachings together). It also leads me to believe that since he has been always a student of these masters, not their guru, that he would be the least developed, thus explaining perhaps some of the imperfections many are convinced he has or has had. Yogananda claimed that any master, Jesus or what have you, had to go through the same struggles like all of us, this inevitably includes PY himself. This fact alone, that at one point they were not perfect and had to struggle like everyone else, should not discourage us, but encourage us even more. Lets not forget that PY also mentioned on a number of occassions of coming back -to work out any remaining imperfections and help more souls on their way back to God? Spiritual growth comes in stages and is directly related to our daily inner psychological and spiritual battles. Like Arjuna, we must battle with laziness, ineptitude, selfishness, attachment to the senses, and find a way to bring about a bodily kingdom governed by king soul and the universal Spirit, God. "Inner reform naturally leads to outer reform." Until then, we will continue to have people doing idiotic things like blowing themselves up and setting themselves on fire, hoping to create political change, rather than doing the smart thing -reforming their inner government first. Realistically however, there is no way you are going to end wars and bring some utopian peace because -according to Yukteswar- we have only entered the dwapara age (and are in kali from a wider view), more on the dark side of human evolution, and there will always be a mix of undeveloped and developed people with almost everyone falling in between corresponding to the Dwapara Age mentality. Sorry to get "off topic" but these issues are all connected.
dawnrays Registered User (10/30/03 7:21 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle xmonk, To deny that there is anybody in the world who is capable of helping, guiding or being an intermediary, is really painting yourself into a corner. God sends people to help us. Sometimes teachers or friends and relatives (like good parents). I think what you perhaps need to see is that this is not a big ego trip for them. Some people get off apparently on using Master's image and legacy to bolster thier own and this is really too bad. If you cannot separate srf and Master then I would venture to say that it is not for you. You are not in a position to be giving out sage advice however, just because your career as a monk didn't work out (and I am in no way blaming you). I'm just saying I never made that choice so perhaps I'm not as bitter and maybe even have a little less baggage than you do about it. Many people are very happy and satisfied with the teachings and some even like srf. It's not for other people to say what's best for them. dawnrays
dawnrays Registered User (10/30/03 8:33 am) Reply	Re: ugizralrite Dear U, I am very sorry to hear about your mother. I used to work in a nursing home and it's the hardest job I ever had. I think alzhiemers is the hardest illness for families and their loved ones to deal with. This should be nothing to you if you can deal with that. It has caused more broken hearts than all the world's lovers. Sometimes when something major is overwith (like an illness) there is a relief and an emptiness at the same time. I remember feeling relieved at first when my father died (because he didn't have to suffer anymore). Later on the grief came and it was almost debilitating for me. I think I would have soon followed him to the grave had it not been for srf, and so that it why even now it's hard to critisize them. I think it's healthy to see them the way they are too. And I wonder sometimes how they really are. The srf Board is very elderly now. It would be hard to believe that they don't also feel somewhat trapped by the institution they are in. We are lucky to be on the outside and at least have some options and perspective available. Good luck on your next business venture and hope it works out better.... dawnrays
etzchaim Registered User (10/30/03 8:58 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll Contrary to what you want to believe, Dawnrays, I'm not obsessed with Yogananda's flaws. The statements I have made about him are directed to people who, like Chela2020, have had difficulty with accepting his imperfections and when they do start admitting them to themselves, react negatively to Yogananda and fail to see the other parts of him and his contributions. Chela appears to be in a process of healing and that is good and I commend her on the growth she has made. I was attempting to put the flaws into perspective, specifically for her and others who may be reading, who are having difficulty with situation. These are real issues, as opposed to 'who's a quack and who's on a mission from God', which does nothing but exacerbate the problem that SRF has created in it's fundamentalist fervor to be the one true way, and need to be addressed so that people can move forward and not dismiss the growth they have achieved and the value that Yogananda really does have. Perspective is the only thing I'm trying to get at. Shelley was far being obsessed with Yogananda's faults, he had much to say about mysticism and how to achieve enlightenment, and G. Kriyananda is not obsessed with Yogananda's faults, but continues in Shelley's tradition in his own way. My Guru lived with Shelley, not with Yogananda. Shelley spent some time during WWII at Mount Washington, to clarify and mainly communicated with Yogananda through letters. He maintained a high level of respect for him, as I do, and as does my Guru, throughout his life. It is actually Sri Nerode and his family who have corroborated Shelleys statements about Yogananda which I am using here. I have read a good deal about this as well as having read statements from Anil on other forums (where he is open about his identity, btw.) I have consistently found Anil to be perceptive, realistic and high level. I've also checked out Dhirananada, who suffered badly from his own dissillusionment This is what I pray can be avoided by people here and those who are still with SRF. These are teaching tools, and nothing more. Am I driving the point home? Gee, I hope so, because the purpose of Kriya Yoga is to evolve spiritually and we can't do that if we are dissillusioned, depressed, angry and feeling unworthy of the Godliness that is our birthright. None of us are unworthy and we do not need to be perfect. The imperfections themselves are parts of a complete whole. Karma does indeed result from wrongful actions, despite that imperfections place in the perfect whole. Perspective is the key. It's all fine and dandy to say that we are all parts of the One, but how does that help us when we everything we've built our lives on has turned sour? As for Ma Durga's book and the other womans, these are lovely and heartwarming books, interesting in may ways, but neither of them address the issue of dissillusionment when the objective of perfection cannot be reached and people are harmed by being made to feel unworthy and inferior because they cannot live up to a goal that is impossible, not phychologically healthy and being enforced by, for all practical purposes, a fascist organization. There is a very real need to heal and for some people on the Walrus, this is a most desparate situation that they find themselves in. For some, their whole life has been spent getting more and more entwined in a damaging situation. Perhaps you are more comfortable in difficult phychological states? I think perhaps you thrive on the knowledge that you can take mental illnesses and wear them like a badge of honor. I don't view that as a healthy alternative. If you want to believe that William was on a mission from God, that by all means do so. George W. is also on a mission from God because he told us he is. Perhaps I'm just a fool who doesn't understand!
dawnrays Registered User (10/30/03 10:04 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll etzchaim, I really don't know if he (William) was on a mission from God. He was a great King. In a way all great rulers I guess are blessed with greater realization than bad ones. This could be due to thier spiritual leanings, previous incarnations as ascetics, etc. I shudder to think what would happen if all good, spiritual people piled into an ashram or a space ship and left only "the bad people". Sometimes it sounds like a good idea. It's not always possible to keep your hands clean in this world, is all I am saying. To be involved is to compromise yourself. I do think most truly spiritual people would rather have peaceful lives in the jungle with thier gurus or thier families or whatever. It just isn't to be. Master didn't want to come here, he wanted to stay with his Master. I think we need to see his life as a sacrifice in that way (all though he was happy to come here for God). srf is definitely out of line as far as their expectations and there is no doubt about it. I speak from first hand experience and yes, I believe it does cause or exacerbate already existing unhealthy mental tendencies. They are classically obsessive/compulsive for one thing. They are extremely obsessed with cleanliness, order and quiet almost beyond belief (hence thier dislike for children). Many people are attracted to these extremes and unhealthy tendencies because of the same in themselves. I for one, was. I grew up in an extremely messy and chaotic environment and I spent my first five years in srf marveling at how clean (sparkling!) and organized everything was. All that shines, sparkles and glitters is not gold, I guess. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/31/03 4:06 am
etzchaim Registered User (10/30/03 12:56 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll At least you admit he was ruthless! He also instituted beheading. I guess that's better than burning, but the heads did roll. On the other hand, he instituted some very humane laws and appears to have been very perceptive about appointing wise ministers, both in the church and in the administration of his kingdoms. This is qualified by the fact that he stripped a large portion of the Nobility of their titles and power and didn't allow any more new ones, ensuring that rebellion was futill, and replaced as many as was possible with Normans who were loyal to him. Those that weren't found their heads rolling. When his intended spurned him, he ripped a good portion of her clothes off and hit her, in public. They married, though, and appear to have had a loving relationship (she had 9 children with him). When he died, his servants took everything they could get their hands on, including his clothes, and left him in a completely bare room, completely naked. A knight happened to see him and, in the spirit of chivalry and no doubt respect, found some clothes and organized the funeral. I'm not so sure how much this shows true loyalty. Fear is a great way to instill this sort of 'loyalty', although he did indeed gain the respect of many of his knights. Yogananda himself has said that he created a huge amount of karma in the life he lived as William. Maybe, just maybe, he did a few things not so enlightened????? I agree wholeheartedly that the more highly evolved should be running the world, that's not the issue. I think the defensiveness is the issue. What is wrong with William and Yogananda making mistakes? From what I can see, it's the blind refusal to admit that neither he nor SRF has done or is doing anything that is not completely enlightened, that is the direct cause of the problems in SRF. When someone suspects there might just be something wrong, a defensive mechanism goes up, an argument ensues or the person is made to feel unworthy is some way. On the other side of the spectrum, when it is accepted that maybe, just maybe Yogananda wasn't perfect, the tendency is for the baby to be thrown out with the bath water. Since I'm writing this in response to your posts, I know you have not done that, so I'm wondering why it is so difficult to admit that William may have had some major issues? I don't know of anyone who has studied him (and I'm a Medieval re-en-actor with an insatiable curiosity and a whole lot of books...) who would hold him to have been a saint. Other Kings were, mind you, with less ruthless administrative ability than William, so it's not like they may have just overlooked it.
dawnrays Registered User (10/30/03 1:24 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll etzchaim, There is no doubt that William was ruthless. He may have even gone too far and suffered for it, I don't know. A certain amount of steely resolve is necessary in a ruler, warrior or a saint. Most saints are very courageous and really are "warriors" in a way. The Old Testament Jehovah seems rather uncompromising and at times even bordering on ruthless. I don't think you can hold people in worldly positions to the same outward standards that you do to people living an ascetic life. It is very unlikely that that a monk or a nun will ever have to kill anyone for example, yet they may still have severe character flaws. A ruler or a warrior can only try to be fair and just. Sometimes to keep evil from getting an upper hand, they may even have to smite their enemies. Not everybody (especially in the middle ages) was just willing to come to the table and discuss things in a rational manner. When there was a plot to kill Elizabeth, her chief advisor had most of the plotters killed (including a priest who was chiefly behind it.) The well balanced person, karmicly speaking in my opinion, does a little of both. I think it's totally appropriate to live some entire lives away from the world and others should be more active. It is my feeling that most saints are preordained by God for that one life, mainly as an example, then go about their worldly business or learn in other lives. Most great saints are a little worldly and most great rulers a little saintly. I will say that beheading is far more humane than burning, if you really feel that somebody has to go. Whether this is part of his great legacy or another faulty bit of karma, I don't know either. Also, he was called William the @#%$ because he was illegitimate. Elizabeth was also referred to as a @#%$ and was considered illegitimate. I think people's actions need to be viewed within the context of thier time and place, is all I'm trying to say. It makes no sense to throw in a red herring like "William was a murderer", unless you are viewing it this way. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/31/03 5:28 am
OneTaste Registered User (10/30/03 6:10 pm) Reply	Sanctimony, get thee behind me *Quote:* As you did with SRF, perhaps you will one day see that the need for an intermediary between you and God is not needed. Ah, our very own Essareffian Luther. Out of the ashram and into the streets, eh? *Quote:* Religion has indoctrinated people with the notion that they are not worthy to approach God individually. EVERY religion has done this since day one. Yeah, well except all the nondual ones, but no matter. We�re not gonna hold you to backing up your statements. *Quote:* There has always been someone who has claimed to be favored by God . . . . Every religion has one of these fellows in order that their masses will blindly follow their edicts. Then, there is always some sacred scripture that tends to back up these edicts. Certainly, and now watch as you do the same, complete with the necessary sanctimony needed to play the part. *Quote:* When one finally sees through all this "magic" and discovers his individual ability to approach his heavenly father without all that baggage, then his life of freedom begins. God is our Heavenly Father. He loves us all equally. His love is without question and without end. We only need approach Him,as we would our earthly father, and freely discuss whatever we wish. There is absolutely no need to entangle ourselves with gurus and scriptures, and all of that. Wow. So radical, little Luther. You go, guy. No need to entagle yourself with the gurus or the scriptures that you received these brilliant ideas from, is there? What, you thought these ideas were some sort of rejection of all that hide-bound stuff? You are spouting party line, mr. xmonk, complete with his language. Where�d you learn it? Oh, right, that guru you now reject. Why didn�t you add the part about not begging, but demanding from our heavenly father and complete the deal? Who do you think you are fooling? *Quote:* Hopefully, one day you will recognize this fact. However, I realize that it won't happen until YOU make that decision. It's like withdrawing from alcohol, or a narcotic. Only when you decide that you have had enough of it all, will you feel that freedom that I mentioned. Good luck. Sanctimony, get thee behind me. Stop projecting on others. You were the one who ignored your now golden advice and went into that lion�s den and fell for everything you now rail against, so don�t lay your trip on others. And let me guess. Your talk of alcohol and narcotics, it comes from direct experience, yes? Or was it just the kind of stuff you picked up from the edicts we are supposed to ignore while heeding the golden advice you�ve stolen from those you now spurn? Good luck indeed. Edited by: OneTaste at: 10/30/03 6:52 pm
chrisparis Registered User (10/31/03 8:06 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll Dear One Taste, I have to confess I was dismayed to see the vitriol in this post. Just because our opinions on things differs doesn't mean that we have to attack them, does it? May I also point out that, in some views, Gurus, Teachings, Techniques are all methods at arriving at something. Once we are there, they can be abandoned or not, at the will of the individual. This is in complete agreement with many published remarks about the kriya path, and those who are advanced on it. After reaching self realization, if they continue with the techniques, it is only to provide an example for those who are still trying to reach that level. You need a ladder to get up on the roof, but once you are up on the roof, do you still want to tow that ladder around?
etzchaim Registered User (10/31/03 8:12 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll Once again, Dawnrays, I'm wondering why you can't admit that William may have done some things that were wrong. On his death bed he said so. The point is not to make William look bad, but to be able to see that our heros do not have to be perfect to be "OK". You may not have succombed to the mythology of SRF, but you have indeed done so with Yogananda, in fact, you are ready to excuse anything he or his previous incarnations have done and have built up your own personal mythology around him that rivals even SRF's at times. I know why he was called the B-st-rd. I'm baiting you for a specific reason. It's an interesting piece of karma. I'm a b-st-rd, too, btw. It appears to have caused in him some interesting reactions where he had to deal with pride issues and the legitamacy of his rulership, including his being a Duke. It was his Dukedom that he was born to, not his Kingship. His move into England was a choice he made. One of his tests in that life appears to have been focused on the issue of pride, and to anyone who is not trying to keep him blemish free, he failed at least a couple of times. The point I'm trying to make is really just a dent in the issue of "Avatar" status and perfection. I too think we need to look at time period, situation, etc., but according to SRF mythology, and your own, we are not dealing with a regular Joe, here, and as a King, this Avatar dude should have been able to not make those mistakes that both incarnations admit to have made. I'm not judging him. I simply have a different standard by which I look at the movement toward enlightenment, and the nature of souls. I also don't buy into the mythology of SRF, nor into Yogananda's packaging of himself and the lineage (nor do I agree with yours). I think it was a way to tie Christianity into Kriya Yoga. It doesn't bother me that he did this. It was probably necessary at the time. I see it as being the same as believing that Jesus went to India and learned the Eastern tradition - there's plenty in the Jewish tradition to get to the Christian teachings - in the research I've done, the two 'systems' are virtually the same and a 13th century Kabbalist has said Yogananda's theory about Jesus Messiahship - that it was enlightenment - long before Yogananda did. None of this is meant to be a judgment, it's simply an observation. That William was able to take some of his "failures" and turn them into something of benefit to himself and others, does not negate the fact that when he didn't get what he wanted and felt insulted, he behaved badly and created karma. Failure itself is a stage along the way and is as illusory as 'success', both of which create karma, depending on what we do. By no means do I think he was the worst offender and he had many good qualities, but when we are talking about a so-called 'Avatar', these issues would not have arrived on the scene - there would have been not at least the heavy karma to struggle with. His fathers knights would have sworn fealty, meant it and kept their word. It's happened that way before and after! He would have been given the kingship of England which he claimed he privately received, though no one else was there, nor did they recognize his "claim", including the Church, and would not have had to take it by force, which created another huge amount of karma. In fact, he could have been born the rightful Prince of England (Harold) and enact the good laws he is known for, without any issues at all and the same end could have been accomplished. The reason I'm going over and over on this is because it's the mythology that is preventing people from moving on in their path toward enlightenment and it is causing psychological damage. If all you need in a Guru is a guardian angel, then an Astral Guru works just fine, but unless you are at the level where you can consciously learn from an Astral Guru, and I'm not talking about dreams, a guardian angel is about all that you will get. I have both. I was not dreaming when my Guru from my last life appeared (I've been on the Kriya path 2 lifetimes in a row and it wasn't Yogananda...), in fact he insisted that I sit at attention before giving me anything. I had to actually prove I was alert and open consciously and state that I was ready to hear what he had to teach. I received a great blessing, which I will carry with me forever. It's been extremely helpful during the many 'dark nights' I've experienced, but it's not the same as having a physicial teacher. Everytime I have an audience, public or private, with my physical Guru, imperfect as he is, I spend at least a couple of weeks going through major transformation. It speeds up my growth palpably and the older I get, the more obvious it is. It may be just a statement he made or that way he answered a question, or simply by being in his auric field, but I'm quite certain I would not be where I'm at if it were not for the connection we have. The only reason I would be put off by someone telling me his 'Kriya is screwed' and that he is not a perfect Avatar, or a fake, is because of my ego, and that's no way to walk the Path. I could learn a lesson in pride from it, but if I rejected him because he was not 'approved of' I could indeed fall off the Path and trip over my own dissillusioned feet. I've left once (because I was intollerant of polytheism) and am still reelling from the growth that my return caused. There is no reason why people shouldn't 'shop around' for their Guru, if they wish. It's important to try to find someone you 'click' with, so to speak. Everyone will be different, your teacher may not even be a 'Guru'. Titles are meaningless, it's spiritual progress we are after, and often a genuine search, setbacks included, contributes to a persons spiritual growth. There are no 'failures' if you are genuinely searching because failing can produce growth and future success (which is why we shouldn't judge - just learn and realize that you can only progress from where you are at. Outward success may be lacking, but that is not about spiritual growth. Karma is as great a teacher as it is a tormentor. When you learn how to learn from it, then, as they say, there is no longer good or bad karma, just karma and it burns off easier and faster when you are learning from it rather than simply experiencing it. If you listen to someone else telling you that someone is illigitimate, you will have closed your mind to a potential gift. If you don't like someone after spending a little time with them, or reading their work, move on without guilt. Go to someone else. Make no judgments of yourself, you are not a failure and you have not been hurt. If you expect the teacher to be perfect, you will not be open to the potential that is there. We are in the Physical Plane, imperfection is it's nature, it's kind of a dance, when you get used to it! Most of what we consider to be imperfect (like I don't aggree intellectually with G. Kriyananda on many things) do not effect the spiritual connection. If you are open to forging the link (it does't even have to be a 'recognized' Guru) then progress can be made. Don't be stupid, but don't close your mind before you even meet someone, and really, don't look for perfection, you will be either conned by appearances or sorely dissillusioned. If you get knocked in the head, spend some time healing, and try again. If you don't need a Guru, you don't need one. Some people genuinely don't, and all of us have at least the first Kriya or we know other meditation techniques. Zen consists of emptying the mind, and it works...you don't need Kriya and using it arrogantly doesn't will cause problems, as we've seen with Prem and his Guru, but be open (from both persectives) and be open to learning anyway. Kriya is a great technique, though, but other schools of meditation know that great secret of revolving the energy around the spine, as well, so keep it in perspective. Don't NOT USE it because you are dissillusioned! Edited by: etzchaim at: 10/31/03 12:32 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/31/03 8:30 am) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll etzchaim, I am not an expert on William nor a historian. I am basically talking in generalities here. I'm not very invested in the "Avatar" status either, so it's not a big issue with me. This is a fascinating conversation by the way, I'm going to need to wind it down for right now. I had surgery last week and I'm having all sorts of problems I can't go in to here. Perhaps we can continue some other time. Ciao dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/31/03 9:21 am
rachelcorrie Registered User (10/31/03 12:22 pm) Reply	Prayers for dawnrays dawnrays, Prayers are beng offered for your steady recovery. A candle is lit. rachelcorrie Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 10/31/03 12:22 pm

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