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chela2020 Registered User (10/28/03 5:51 am) Reply	Re: perhaps you will return to this board srflongago (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:41 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/28/03 11:44 am) Reply	Agreed Soul Circle Agreed Soul Circle, I have never been offended, confused or upset by any "negative press" about Master. My "investigation" as well as the rest of my relationship with him, is on an inner level (where it belongs). When somebody throws you a life preserver (as you are going down for the third time) you don't stop to question that person's moral background, so why do so later? A lot of so called good, moral and well meaning people will let you drown in this world. It's not for us to judge the person God sends to help us out of our misery and dilusion. These so called "investigations" into the faults of others, whether defending or accusatory, are somebody else's dilusion and have nothing to do with me. On the other hand, there is no way I can read the srf magazine anymore and hear about all of their "good works" and many sacrifices. It just smacks of a big phony lie and doesn't match what I personally experienced for eighteen years. Chela2020, you have every right to leave srf and to find another guru (whom I am sure you have thoroughly investigated). I think you misjudge others though by thinking they are anywhere near as upset as you are over some sexual allegations (which have never come to anything anyway, have been disproven to almost all interested parties' satisfaction and so on). You also seem to put a lot of credence into the opinion of say, Micheal Flynn, for example. I have read some of srflongagos posts, and he does not seem to be either attacking or defending Master, just making the suggestion that you go beyond it. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/28/03 12:02 pm
chela2020 Registered User (10/28/03 1:27 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:45 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/28/03 2:23 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle I don't know too much about these people, except for the posts I read by srflongago. I know I wasn't and I personally don't know of anybody who was "devastated" over the sexual allegations. I was at the San Diego Temple at the time and there was a mention of some allegation being disproven in an anouncement once. I never discussed it with anybody after that and never heard it referred to again until I found this board. Our temple was more open than some and some people did openly complain about srf. I don't even know what you mean by "investigating". The only way to investigate a guru is through inner realization (that he is right or wrong for you). This can be through meditation, dreams, feelings or even outer circumstances involving others. The whole concept of negative/positive is subject to change when you are with your guru. The things I thought of as a real problem about myself turned out not to be (the problem). By what criteria do you judge a person like this? If your former value system didn't work for you as a Christian or an atheist or whatever, why bother with it now? I never investigated srf by the way, I just got tired of it. Certain situations which made no sense kept presenting themselves in the same non-productive, frustrating ways. I wrote probably 15 or 20 letters to MC over the years trying to discuss matters. At our temple, many of the devotees had meetings and I talked with my minister a few times about my feelings. srf's problems are so obvious to even the most casual observer, that they don't require any further investigation. The main "investigations" going on now are simply people (monks, nuns, employees) feeling free to open up about thier formerly "closed" experiences. Also, a few more pragmatic investigations into money matters. People have a right to know where their money is going, particularly if it's being funneled into lawsuits (one of which was handled by a certain Micheal Flynn.) It does say something to me about the strong guru/chela bond and the teachings that he manages to keep anybody around at all. That is really the only reason most people stay in srf and if it weren't so strong for most, a negative cult experience like srf would surely sever it. It is hard to say also, whether somebody has really left their guru. Sometimes they move along and it just looks that way, sidetrack, or sometimes they never really felt like he was their guru in the first place. This is another totally individual matter that can't be evaluated from the outside. I am not sure what scriptures you are referring nor what kind of investigation they are referring to. Noticing somebody's faults and trying to understand them is not the same as digging around with an agenda to discredit them. srf's faults are actually very forgivable and even understandable. They need to own up to them and try to work with the members (and stop treating them like children or even "the enemy"). My guess is that Master (nor any of the Masters) did not do too much investigating of other people. I'll bet they didn't even ask for references! It seems neither unconditional nor loving to require these things and very seldom can outer circumstances tell you what you really want to know, anyway. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/28/03 4:33 pm
chela2020 Registered User (10/28/03 6:59 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:46 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/28/03 8:44 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Well, it seems obvious to me that Yogananda is not your guru. It does not require an explanation of any kind on your part, particularly if you have already found someone else who meets your standards. I think srf is a different matter. Most people basically only want respect and a dialogue and some say in how the organization is run. How money is spent and so on would be a big part of this. For me, I am not all that picky about who I am friends with. If I feel some degree of love and acceptance, that is more important than any outward condition (works better in emergencies, too). My dad was a very loving and spiritual man who died at a young age. All that some people could remember about him in the end was that he was a "failure", had a bad temper (he did) and was a compulsive gambler (he was). Mostly what I remember is that he was a kind and loving person who would have given you the shirt off his back (if you needed it). All I'm saying is that sometimes it's better to trust what you really and truly know then to go asking around for opinions. I have gone for very long periods feeling very uncertain about my circumstances and security, but in the end I could see there was a reason why I didn't know the whole story before. The relationship between you and your guru should be based on love and trust. So of course, if you don't trust him, it is certainly far better to find someone else or not to have a guru at all. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/28/03 10:27 pm
chela2020 Registered User (10/29/03 3:06 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle (This message was left blank) Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 9:02 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 8:08 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Well, not to drag this on forever, but even facts can be misleading. It is good to trust your own perceptions, particularly if you are meditating, doing kriya, and have a guru. The whole purpose of yoga is to trust in and develop your sense of intuition, which is the only true way of discriminating. I feel like you are alluding to something you may perceive that others don't want to see or investigate, but in reality, may just seem irrelevant. There is a reason why many people's first experience with their guru is at thier darkest hour. That is so they know that God and guru are always there for them even when all else deserts them. Compared to this kind of unconditional love, faults do not seem relevant and the whole perception of looking at a person that way, vanishes. This is not a defective car engine we are talking about. For one thing, you do not choose a guru. He is not available for you to look over and send back when you find there is a problem with the merchandise. A true guru is sent by God when your desire (for God) is intense enough. As I said before, I don't think that Master is your guru. I think for some people, the disilusion with srf also includes Master. Their attachment is mainly to the outward structure and without that, they find it impossible to have a relationship with him. A guru doesn't necessarily come with a religeon. I think what you are looking for is a more organized, outward form of worship and you have found it. That doesn't mean there has to be something wrong with Master, the teachings or that people need to open thier eyes, investigate, take your warnings, heedings and so on. It simply means it was not for you and not what you were looking for. It is supreme audacity by the way, to refer to Master as "fallen on the path" or "dishonorable". I wonder if you even know what these mean or are aware of just how fallen you are to say such things and still (as you mentioned in another thread) expect him to "help you" because your relationship is "eternal" even though you have "left him". It would be better just to leave than to keep a foot in both camps in your uncomfortable suspicion that you may still have use for Master one day (so keep him on hold in case this one doesn't work out). dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/29/03 4:40 pm
etzchaim Registered User (10/29/03 10:23 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle What's wrong with saying "fallen on the path?" King David fell. His struggles, and the fact that he failed at times, is what gives me the strength to carry on with my own struggles, precisely because I'm not perfect. Not every one needs the perfect Shepard fantasy. My take is, if Yogananda had really been William the B-st-rd (that's his other name, by the way, the filth filters not letting me write it in any other way, I've resorted to the time old Hebrew tradition of simply not using vowels...), then the soul that manifested through him may indeed have issues that we don�t know about. I see absolutely no problem with someone 'falling on the path'. The point is to pick yourself up again and continue the walk. If he were to have given up because it was too hard or because he failed a few times, I would then lose my respect. I have no doubt that Yogananda had a temper and was less than chivalrous to women, because this is what many of the people who knew him and have no vested interest in portraying him as a perfect Shepard have said. He also knew he was going to have trouble in the next life he manifested in the physical plane, this I know from my own lineage. He was on a higher level than most people in the world. He failed a few tests. He helped a huge number of people. No he wasn't perfect. Does anyone here know exactly what his struggles were? If you need a perfect Guru, please don't turn yours over in real life and look at his/her underside. If I dismissed him for that, I'd have to dismiss every Guru and teacher in the world, once I've turned them over, of course, because no matter how you look at it, we're all here on the earth plane, and this place is not 'perfect'. As far as I can tell, perfection begins several levels up. My office has been tossing around the phrase "cognitive dissonance" quite frequently these days, it's become a symbol for all that we see around us. The jarring and inconsistent parts of ourselves and others around us are a reminder of just how complex and amazing life here is, and how inappropriate it is to comdem people for inconsistencies. If you learn from someone and there is a particular kind of relationship with a person that qualifies as 'Guru', they are your Guru. There's much more to it, including much that goes on in the Astral plane and planes higher than that that are quite well done by someone with imperfections in their temporary nature. All the people on a spiritual path are on a path, not at our final destination. A path implies 'walking somewhere' and this includes our most revered teachers, despite our desire to view them as "perfect beings". We had another conversation here, prompted by Deepak Chopra being interviewed on NPR. Two of us have been on a spiritual path for quite some time (the other person has been practicing Zen Buddhism for over almost two decades). We concluded that we like some of what Chopra says, very much, but there is something that disturbs us. He makes the spiritual path appear to be 'magic', too easy, like 'understand this and all your troubles will disappear', 'you will be HAPPY!� Both of us know better. No one, not anyone, there isn't a single soul, etc., who progresses smoothly, in all facets of their being, at a steady, undisturbed rate and there is no one among us who knows every contributing facter in a situation that we can judge someone else for their imperfections and failings. If you are looking for perfection, don't seek it in yourself or in other people, and really, move on if you don't like something. The only 'failures' among us are the people who let failure cripple them, or blithely drift in the stubborn belief that they somehow rated a 'perfect Shepard'. Edited by: etzchaim at: 10/29/03 11:21 am
ranger20 Registered User (10/29/03 10:48 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle *Quote:* There is a reason why many people's first experience with their guru is at thier darkest hour. That is so they know that God and guru are always there for them even when all else deserts them. Slightly (?) off topic, this sentence jumped out at me because I personally know various people (myself included) for whom the "darkest hour" experience has faded over time, and has been replaced with a sense of unworthiness. Where does it come from? [rhetorical question]. From a lot of "the teachings" in their present state. This must be fairly generalized, because I don't think I've ever been to a Convocation where one minister or another didn't speak directly to this. This is the point at which I find it hardest to seperate SRF and Master. SRF is shot through with a kind of implied hiearchy of merit - Rajasi at the top of the food chain, on down to lil' old me. "Oh no, I've been blowing off some of my energizations lately, so don't God and Guru love me a little bit less?" I've been trying over time, by getting earlier and earlier versions of the writings, to find some kind of bedrock of "true" teachings, and I'm coming to think I "can't get there from here." Claims in the preface of earlier editions of the AY, about changes the Master intended at the time of his passing. True? Not true? 50% true? Whose voice in this lesson? What about that lesson? I think you are absolutely right that the ultimate test is one's intuitive experience in meditation, and I think for me to reclaim that, and the positive relation I've had in the past with the Guru, it's time to walk away from all the writings for perhaps a considerable period of time. *Quote:* A true guru is sent by God when your desire (for God) is intense enough. But one more bit of "textual analysis" first. In a letter to Rajasi in the current Rajasi memorial book, Master says, "Lahiri is my astral Guru, as Sri Yuketeswar is my earthly Guru." Additionally, the predominant belief is that PY was Arjuna in the past, at which time "Babaji-Krishna" would have been the Guru. I recently came upon the claim (by Abbot George Burke in "An Eagle's Flight") echoing the (somewhat common)belief that PY was William the Conqueror, and presenting the initially startling (but also plausible) assertion that he was John, "the beloved disciple." In either case, Jesus would have been the Guru (apparently William was interested in spiritual matters all his life, and on his death bed, learning that it was a feast day of the Virgin, said "Ah, I can go now." and left consciously). So if some or all of these SRF legends are true, it would mean that PY spent incarnations at the feet of "some or all" or the other Gurus. Outwardly, at least, this would contradict the assertion that you have one and only one Guru until liberation. I think masters generally state that "God is the Guru," but I don't think the "one and only one" belief is generally used in that ultimate sense. Edited by: ranger20 at: 10/29/03 10:52 am
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 11:21 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Yes, I totally agree that we all fall on the path, including Masters. After all Jesus fell three times while carrying his cross in the literal sense. It is my perception that most high souls may have even more falls, failings and personal issues than the norm. St. Francis was a nest of troubles and so were many great saints. I disagree that this can be used as a way to judge a person's worth as a guru or as a person. I have always admired people who managed to triumph over or even struggled bravely on with thier personal adversities, particularly their own personal and physical failings. The point I was trying to illustrate with my father was that these things really have no relevance when you feel secure in a loving (not necessarily perfect) relationship with someone. I remember reading the book Cybil, who was so abused by her mother she fragmented into different personalities. When her grandma died (her only friend) she thought they were "burying love". When you have to bury somebody you love, you realize how stupid and silly all of their "faults" were and you just want them back. I think you can have many teachers, but a true guru is one whom you love (and loves you) unconditionally. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/29/03 12:56 pm
etzchaim Registered User (10/29/03 11:42 am) Reply	There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll "(apparently William was interested in spiritual matters all his life, and on his death bed, learning that it was a feast day of the Virgin, said "Ah, I can go now." and left consciously)." He also personally murdered a goodly number of people, including close relatives so as to not have too much competition in the realm of earthly power.
xmonk Registered User (10/29/03 11:43 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Dawnrays, It's nice to be "true" to your convictions, and I realize that truth is in perception, but it would be wise, I think, for you to really do some investigation into what you seem to hold so dear. When you cut through all the "magic" that has been put up around the guru, you may find, once again, as with SRF, that the emperor wears no clothes.
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 11:43 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Ranger, You know I don't think of the srf guru's as being really separate from each other, or from God or from any other Master or even from me or on and on (my dog?).... I think it all just falls into place and it's all God and that's what I mean by "one true guru". I don't think there needs to be a contradiction. I have definitely not read much literature (of any kind) lately and have not looked at Master's or srf's writings in several years. I don't agree that you need to keep at this stuff. It sinks in and then you move along. Everybody's different though. My husband reads AY or one of Master's works every night. He especially loves his Bhagavad Gita, which I have only glanced through (although we have had it for years.) He is more into "the light" and doesn't even have that much of a problem with srf, strangely. I don't think he's ever gotten into it emotionally, never volunteered and just sees it as a convenient place to meditate. Everybody is different. I'm finding that as I get less attached, I have less and less energy to even be bothered by srf. It's just there. If it's ever convenient, I'll just go to a medition there. I really prefer Ananda more though because it's friendlier. Anyway I live in rural Puget Sound so none of these are issues (and maybe that helps). dawnrays
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 11:52 am) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle xmonk, Frankly, I wouldn't know who to ask. If you ask me, you get to a point in your life where you don't trust anybody, but you've got to trust somebody. Who would you suggest I ask first? And who will vouche for their word? It just goes on and on. What "magic" are you suggesting I need to get past? I never expected any but got some anyway. I have actually had several things happen to me which I can only attribute to divine intervention by my guru. I am here writing today and not dead for many years because of it. Now, are you suggesting that I call a lawyer or something or perhaps go over Master's suspected previous lives to see if he is really "worthy" of my love and trust? I am telling you, if there is some piece of information that you think I need to know about Master (that in my dilusion I just am not seeing) why don't you just tell me what it is? What ever the major turnoff for you is, might not be the same for me. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/29/03 4:44 pm
etzchaim Registered User (10/29/03 12:59 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle Dawnrays, "a true guru is one whom you love (and loves you) unconditionally." I'm not sure how you got this interpretation of what a true Guru is. A true lover is someone you love and who loves you unconditionally. They may or may not help you on your spiritual path and one can love someone and be loved back without much wisdom! You can argue that there is an innate wisdom in unconditional love, but since it's often the retarded who demonstrate it best, I daresay it's not the only sign of a true Guru, or we would be sitting at the feet of people with Down's Syndrome! I'm not saying you can't learn great things from the mentally handicapped (like unconditional love, for instance) but not many people would call them 'Gurus'. You can say the same thing for a good mother - and many people DO actually refer to their mothers as their first Guru, but I think there's a little more going on. Guru's are guides on a spiritual path and have the wisdom to know or intuit what will break through barriers, or in some other way push the disciple through to new levels of growth. A person and their Guru have a spiritual connection that allows for work to be done on the various levels of existence that further the devotee in their particular 'way' towards God. Perfection is definately not necessary here and judging from the mess that SRF has created, believing in it is an obstacle that should be avoided. People will 'connect' to different teachers because they need different things at any stage of their development, or they have forged a relationship with their teacher over lifetimes that has produced the mutual soul understanding (if not the conscious understanding) that enables the teaching to 'click'. Yogananda met quite a few realized beings in India and elsewhere, but he was connected to one person very specifically because Sri Yukteswar and he had a specific soul connection that triggered spiritual growth in him. When a person meets their Guru, both people 'recognize' each other. Unconditional love is there, but that is not what makes a true Guru. Perfection has little to do with it and exists only in the realm of Myth and in the highest levels of existence. My Guru from my last lifetime has appeared to me (back in the 80's), but in this lifetime, I have a different one. It's quite clear to me just WHY I have this particular Guru, and I've learned from him in the past, so we've forged a relationship before. My experiences with him have been that he is uncannily accurate in his understanding of what I need to hear and do in order to work through the obstacles in my path, whether I like what he is doing or not - and often I have rebelled against him only to find out later that he was right, or not, as the case may be - though time is still ticking away! The unconditional love is a given but that is only the edge of the picture. Edited by: etzchaim at: 10/29/03 1:04 pm
dawnrays Registered User (10/29/03 1:10 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll Not to excuse murder, but I think you have to realize that most royal European bloodlines were extremely politically motivated and dysfunctional, to put it mildly. These "families" and relatives were often political pawns, blood enemies and products of old fueds and politically arranged marriages. Elizabeth Tudor imprisoned her own cousin for 20 years, then had her beheaded. Her mother was beheaded at her father's request. She was considered a royal "@#%$" and was almost murdered by her Catholic half-sister Mary, for being a protestant. She was of course considered a great Queen who saved England from ruin, foreign occupation and disaster. William did the same for his country and was considered a great King. Abraham almost murdered his son at God's request and of course nothing can rival the Old Testament for murder and mayhem. This is unfortunately the way of kali yuga and the past. I don't believe in holding up historical figures though, to modern day standards of political correctness and sensitivity. William, Abraham and many others, considered themselves to be doing God's will on this earth and did it unquestioningly. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 10/29/03 7:00 pm
ranger20 Registered User (10/29/03 1:34 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll *Quote:* He also personally murdered a goodly number of people, including close relatives so as to not have too much competition in the realm of earthly power. Didn't know that, but on the other hand, no real dissonance, since I'm not particularily invested in his good behavior.
ranger20 Registered User (10/29/03 1:45 pm) Reply	Re: Agreed Soul Circle *Quote:* I don't think he's ever gotten into it emotionally, never volunteered and just sees it as a convenient place to meditate. That pretty much describes me. Except at the very beginning, most of my fitful moves toward volunteering have been so unpleasant, that I realized my relationship with the Guru was in jeapordy, and gave it up. Of course most of those times I figured it just meant I was a bad seed, mark of Cain, that kind of thing, so I guess "it," the organization, got it's hooks into me. As recently as last night, I woke up at 3am second guessing my movement to the farthest fringes of those who sometimes show up for the meditations. It feels very liberating to keep that kind of distance 90% of the time, but there's still some kind of "loyalty boss sub-personality" that periodically whispers, "You in a heap o' trouble boy!" Edited by: ranger20 at: 10/29/03 1:46 pm
etzchaim Registered User (10/29/03 1:51 pm) Reply	Re: There's some cognitive dissonance for ya'll "Not to excuse murder, but I think you have to realize that most royal European bloodlines were extremely politically motivated and dysfunctional, to put it mildly. These "families" and relatives were often political pawns, blood enemies and products of old fueds and politically arranged marriages." You've apparently missed my point. It's all cognative dissonance. Karma was created from all of this - no matter how dysfunctional the family. Also, you forget to mention the Catholic Church as a paradigm of mayhem and murder. Karma, Karma, Karma. ...and today? We stay politically correct while children starve and grow up to kill each other in the inner cities, with drugs or guns and knives, or spend their lives in prison because they fell beneath the radar of political correctness and American wealth, CEO's rob people of their future and mostly get away with it, our leaders start 2 wars in that many years and claim the world has never been more peaceful, our companies pollute the land and water of our neighbors and third world country's and the children there live horrible lives, etc., etc., etc. while we live in our politically correct world with products, products, products... Karma, Karma, Karma. I'm not talking about one religion or one time period being 'better' than another. Do you understand what I mean by cognitive dissonance? You just demonstrated it. Edited by: etzchaim at: 10/29/03 1:58 pm

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