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needthestar
Registered User
(11/5/03 4:25 pm)
Reply 		Re: Could it be?
Box Score Jones,

Picture, if you will, a black berry bush...it's branches bowing with delicious, ripe berries. Too many to count if you dare. How wonderful they taste. This is the Walrus Board.

Now look even closer....see the thorns? See how they position themselves around the ripest of the ripe...waiting for a chance to tear your delicate skin? They too are the Walrus Board.

Pick carefully and enjoy.

Edited by: needthestar at: 11/5/03 4:26 pm
chela2020
Registered User
(11/6/03 7:32 am)
Reply 		Re: Could it be?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:42 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(11/6/03 8:41 am)
Reply 		goddess and i share a good belly laugh
we are fish spending our whole lives swimming in water

the water is God

for me it isn't about reaching goddess or a path

it isn't

or about someday not having pain and anger (someday having a pure heart)

it isn't

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
for me and goddess it is a pretty big ocean

and as my gills are awash in the water

[goddess has created me warts and all

and is in and all around me]

and as my gills are awash in water

goddess and i share a good belly laugh

when i conjure up spending lifetimes seeking her

or as is the common phrase....when I seek God

do fish need to seek water? .........................Laughing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LAUGHING
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

by the way I Heard God Laughing Renderings of Hafiz
by Daniel Ladinsky is a wonderful book
a gift to me years ago from Jason Becker and his dad Gary
www.jasonbecker.com

in reading one of the shortest poems, I have decided to share:

*********** STRANGE MIRACLE ************

Oh Wondrous Creatures,
By what strange miracle
Do you so often
Not smile?

Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/6/03 8:43 am
dawnrays
Registered User
(11/6/03 8:51 am)
Reply 		DNA Tests
Chela2020,

Is it really just a matter of "belief" with a DNA test? These tests are so accurate, they are used to spring accused murder felons from death row. To date, many, many falsely accused (often black men) have been sprung from prison time thanks to the utilization of DNA testing. Against what? Someone's account who has nothing to lose and millions to gain from a false paternity suite?

These tests are 100% accurate as far as I know. They would have to be in order to overturn a murder conviction. They have been used as irrefutable evidence in other paternity suites for years.

If you can't believe with your heart, then think with your brain!

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/6/03 9:05 am
ranger20
Registered User
(11/6/03 9:06 am)
Reply 		Re: Could it be?
Quote:
I noticed a few times you mentioned posting changes you've picked up on....bring them on. I feel I'm getting the clearest picture I've had in about ...well six years since I started this venture.

Ok. I started a new thread in this "SRF Teachings and Ideals" section called "Autobiography of a Yogi changes." I'll post a few of the other changes I've noticed that have not already been widely discussed. There are several other sections on the Walrus devoted to George Burke's writings and I'll post a few items there too.

soulcircle
Registered User
(11/6/03 9:15 am)
Reply 		is it really
is it really just a matter of srf "belief" that srf can conduct a "dna test" improperly.

sure a dna test done in the standard double-check and third party gathering of blood, is extremely accurate

for srf to conduct a sloppy test and get [what can only be PR results] published in the L.A. newspaper shortly before 2002 convocation is "standard operating procedure" for srf

but again, the emperor has no clothes as this most recent "dna test" was not done with forensic "standard operating procedures."

Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/6/03 9:17 am
chela2020
Registered User
(11/6/03 10:15 am)
Reply 		Re: is it really
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:55 pm
dawnrays
Registered User
(11/6/03 10:18 am)
Reply 		Re: is it really
Excuse me, I'm not an expert on this case but wasn't this test court ordered and didn't it hold up in court? If so, then the court (which is unbiased and I assume doesn't care who's daddy is who's) is satisfied with the DNA test results and that would include the gathering of the information.

I am amazed this keeps getting brought up as a DNA test is usually a closure for every other case I have ever heard of.

dawnrays

soulcircle
Registered User
(11/6/03 11:48 am)
Reply 		kiss
you know i learned this saying a few years back

keep it simple .............!
or in acronym k.i.s.s.

the test srf heralds [and for just the purpose of people passing it on and on infinitum, as the gospel truth.....people like you dawnrays, if i may be so bold]
the test srf heralds [do people believe everything partial reporters report with a slant]

the test srf heralds was improper, i.e.

improperly done

k.i.s.s.

soulcircle
Registered User
(11/6/03 12:00 pm)
Reply 		to change the subject
re: Tara Mata

people from the richmond chapel can be taken and shown the lot that as a UC student Tara Mata lived on with her parents.
On Leroy Street in the Berkeley hills
The present home may have been a replacement home. In 1924 a devastating fire sweep from the hills to the bay through that part of Berkeley.

Later in her life Tara Mata lived in a small home near Mount Washington. Everyone! at the time knew this. And knew, that in this home, she lived with her child.

How many of you know this?
I was a student of the lessons for 30 years before I did.
It has been mentioned elsewhere in walrus.

and if you think I have morals, let me stand before the whole world and say Tara Mata edited [the AY] one of the best books of all time

and we know her grandfather was one of Joseph Smith's 12 elders [Orson Pratt......... Orson Hyde, another of the 12 has two grandsons who were formerly monks] in forming the Mormon Church

and I stand before the whole world saying i am not worthy of touching these people's feet, but let's let history represent itself

and not keep the company that produces rose-colored glasses in business forever, ok?

Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/6/03 12:04 pm
dawnrays
Registered User
(11/6/03 12:16 pm)
Reply 		Re: kiss
Look, a negative DNA test is gospel truth enough for me. Not everybody get's their desired results (just ask Robert Blake) even though they have alot of money. I don't imagine all the poor families of falsely accused and convicted husbands, fathers and sons had a lot of money, either.

From a common sense point of view, I have just never heard of DNA evidence being called into question before. DNA evidence is considered conclusive by the courts. If it was court ordered (which I assume it was and usually is) I assume the appropriate monitoring and fail-safes were done. If this is the one special case where it should be questioned, then by all means it should be hauled it into court again.

And also, just because srf makes a media circus out of something, is no reason to assume they have the power or the means to falsify DNA results. That's a very heavy accusation and would of course call in to question other court cases and DNA results. Like I said though, I have never heard of this happening.

dawnrays

needthestar
Registered User
(11/6/03 12:19 pm)
Reply 		Re: Could it be?
Dearest Chela,

Dear soul wrapped in light,

Dear fellow seeker of the PATH.

Thank you for your kind words and the desire to share you and your Guru's wisdom, as you represent his Glory here.

This topic whether subtle or on the table generates heat and anger that stirs the already cloudy mind.

I did not intend for this topic to take the course that it has...but, admiringly, feared it might. I am a short sighted fool.

If only God would send down an angel to explain all of this to us....it would be so much easier.

How Glorious He is and how quickly He dissipates, leaving only scents and scraps of what used to be....such is with any Masters presence on this plane. Shadow boxing, we are, with the Infinite. An Eternal catch twenty-two. How dare He leave us with so little evidence...crumbs of His Glory that only gets swept up in the wind and blown in our eyes......how dare He?

He dares because He loves us? He dares because He wants us to move along and not become stagnant? He dares because His play must go on? Why Chela? Why friend in flight?

My small brain cannot comprehend this nor my heart carry the burden. I shall not participate in the drumming, hollering and chasing of the Monster. I've been called to drop my torch, as I am too ignorant to do such a thing without being told to do so.

For this blind man dare not say "this is east!" cause surely it is west or "this it west!" cause certainly it is east, as I cannot see the tip of my nose. I cannot put together a puzzle that is missing pieces and declare it whole.

My heart has whispered secrets to me....quiet as I sit. It speaks softly over the constant prayer for truth. It harkens over the din of reporters, gurus, disciples, test tubes, money, whirl wind of allegations and whole sale "truth".

Drop the torch and come home He says.

So, you see, I've stirred the water and it is now muddy. My Guru warned me not to...but I failed to listen to him. Now He asks me to walk away and acknowledge that "though I have eyes I do not see" and "though I have ears I do not hear".

I am blind, deaf, dumb, without sense of touch and smell and an ass as well.

Do you hear the call as well Sister? For I know your Wisdom is true and recognizes "Truth" when it speaks.

The bell has rung...lets put down our gloves before one blow is made.

Let us walk from here. Let us smooth the waves and see our true reflection.....oh how beautiful We are. Sparkles of Joy.

Your Guru is calling you....as is mine to rest with them in silence.

God Bless your sweet, sweet soul Chela.

Shall we never meet at this particular muddy puddle again and be happier for it.

Peace

dawnrays
Registered User
(11/6/03 12:43 pm)
Reply 		Muddy Puddles
Well excuse me for muddying the puddle, but I didn't bring this up and I for one would like to see it settled once and for all.

Master's personal life has never been a concern for me and thank God nobody is judging me on mine. However, it seems to me that things don't get much more cut and dried than a DNA test. I'm not the one who's "struggling with doubts" but even if Master was just some Joe Schmoe milllionaire who'd been dead for 50 years, I would probably still have to say "no, this guy is just looking for a payoff!"

I am sorry but I have been through it for many posts with chela on the "spiritual point of view" and this is the other one. I guess it is also valid since she (and you apparently) are still having so many doubts.

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/6/03 12:51 pm
dawnrays
Registered User
(11/6/03 12:44 pm)
Reply 		Muddy Puddles
same post accidently posted twice.

Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/6/03 12:47 pm
needthestar
Registered User
(11/6/03 1:23 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Dawn Rays,

Please don't be angry. This is something I started and shouldn't have. Please, please don't be angry. Let it go.

I'm not sure where you think I have doubts about Master. I'm sorry if I've given that impression...I do not. Please reread my posts in a different light.

I'm trying to defuse this....no one's opinion is going to change. No ones. That's my whole point.

I beg your forgiveness for this mess. I forgot how easily it spills over. Please. Please it's all water under the bridge eventually and not worth anybodys peace of mind.

It's best if everybody just walk away from this....I am not posting on this thread again, and didn't intend to until I saw how angry you were. Feel free to email my inbox, but please just let this go for now.

chela2020
Registered User
(11/6/03 2:01 pm)
Reply 		Re: Could it be?
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/4/03 8:54 pm
dawnrays
Registered User
(11/6/03 2:18 pm)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
I'm not upset. It's just really hard to get into an interesting, rational topic on this board when people keep bringing this up. It happens quite a bit but you wouldn't know being new.

For me, if someone were to tell me that Master and Rajarsi were secret lovers, dressed in drag and went to Mardi Gras together for a lark, I would say "good for them!" "They work and meditate hard, they deserve some fun!"

That's where I'm coming from. Also, it is very possible to know Master on the inner level and that's where it counts. I never cared about having a guru in the body because basically, I'm too lazy for all of that and I was always a poor student in school. I like it that all of my little successes and failures are just between him and I. I know everybody is different on that though.

dawnrays

Edited by: dawnrays at: 11/6/03 3:05 pm
needthestar
Registered User
(11/7/03 6:19 am)
Reply 		Re: Muddy Puddles
Love to you both and your passion for TRUTH.

I just uncovered this quote and thought it was very appopriate to end this matter as it sums up our conclusion nicely.....and such Divine Irony that it was posted by none other than SRFLONGAGO almost two years ago:

"It is not possible to resolve the contradictory accounts you have heard of the past. Each buttresses his or her own current bias and belief and hurt feelings by his or her own selective account of the past. The few incontrovertible facts help little to resolve these issues.

I do not believe anyone you referred to is conscious of coloring the truth, whether they be followers or detractors of Yogananda or Kriyananda or otherwise involved.

It is best to listen with sympathy, to be tolerant of conflicting views, and to proceed on one's own path to enlightenment with serenity and calm. To do otherwise is to be inevitably drawn from the clear light to become enmeshed in the darkness of the confusion and despair of others. Travelling toward the light encourages those around you to transcend their confusion and despair."

Peace

chrisparis
Registered User
(11/7/03 10:43 am)
Reply 		Re: Could it be? Sorry to say...
Greetings to all,

The reason we fight so hard for this is that we all want the PY story (as in AOY) to be absolutely true. We are all human beings, we are all afraid of death, we are all afraid that life has no meaning. The presence of a God-realized Guru in our midst, or of his deathless param-param guru is proof positive of the existence of God and the immortality of the soul.

Sorry to say, but it simply doesn't work this way. God will not be giving an interview on 60 Minutes this Sunday, nor will scientific proof, satisfying to folks in white lab coats, be forthcoming...ever. Ultimately we have to make the decision for ourselves that we have proof that satisfies us.

I have given this all ALOT of thought, and I have to conclude that PY was a human being. His enlightenment or lack thereof is a seperate issue. He may have had an affair (or several), or eaten meat on a regular basis. I just don't know. But I believe is that IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER ALL THAT MUCH.

See, what's really F'd up here is the whole "guru is an embodiement of God" thing that we bought wholesale from the Hindu culture. Well, O.K., sure s/he is, but only to the point that all human beings are. Beyond that, I think, the guru is a finger pointing at the moon. A guru is a "dispeller of darkness", and his/her function is to TEACH people how to reach the higher level. I simply don't believe anymore that their function is to take the karma of disciples and burn it up for them. And the whole "Divine Guru" thing is really a promotion aimed at keeping gurus in business.

So now we are all stewing in our own juices because we have seen the warts on SRF's backside far more up close and personal than we would ever have liked, and the inevitable question is "hey, if this is false, what can I believe is certainly true?" And there aint no easy answer to that, because ultimately the bliss of meditation could be chalked up to hyperventilation or self hypnosis, and spherical vision could be chalked up to a parapsychological activity of the brain we don't know about yet, and the Near Death Experience could be the result of the production of endorphines and the firing of neurons in the brainstem as death approaches. We just won't ever know in a scientifically verifiable way that we can present in a paper and have approved by the AMA or the APA. We simply have to come to terms with the fact that nobody is ever going to prove conclusively beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists, or that there is some part of us that survives the end of physical incarnation. There will always be a way someone can point at our evidence and say "yeah, but..."

So I think we all need to sit back and relax a bit, and realize that, in this life, we will find certitude only at the point that we accept the evidence we have as sufficient FOR US, and stop looking for an incontravertible piece of evidence that can convince everybody. Personally, I believe Param(a)hansa Yogananda was a great soul (but probably not the reincarnation of Arjuna OR William the Conqueror) who taught a great meditation technique with an ancient lineage. BUT, he was limited by his cultural bias, and he was limited by his monastic background. He taught what he knew. There are other ways to reach self realization. No one way is appropriate for everybody. No one way is even POSSIBLE for everybody (I realized that when my kriya practice began to take over more than 3 hours a day. I'm NOT a monk, for God's sake).

I hope I haven't offended anybody here with this little tirade, and, to forestall misunderstanding, I want to state here that I am convinced of the reality of spirtual truths. The difference is that I accept the fact that the things that have convinced me are not things that would convince anybody else necessarily (they are what scientists call "anecdotal").

God be with all of you. I pray for you all daily.

OneTaste
Registered User
(11/7/03 1:35 pm)
Reply 		Re: I'll have some of what he's having!
chrisparis said:

Quote:
I have given this all ALOT of thought, and I have to conclude that PY was a human being. His enlightenment or lack thereof is a seperate issue. He may have had an affair (or several), or eaten meat on a regular basis. I just don't know. But I believe is that IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER ALL THAT MUCH.



Ok, who are you really and what have you done with the real chrisparis? ;)

Wow, chris, this is quite a transformation in attitude since the last time you were here raging against guru for his transgressions. (Unfortunately, for reasons unknown to me, the walrus censor wiped those threads off the board.) Nice to see, surely. May I ask what was it that turned you?


Quote:
ultimately the bliss of meditation could be chalked up to hyperventilation or self hypnosis, and spherical vision could be chalked up to a parapsychological activity of the brain we don't know about yet, and the Near Death Experience could be the result of the production of endorphines and the firing of neurons in the brainstem as death approaches.


Happily, this either or brain/mind dichotomy seems (at last) to be giving way to a more integrated framework, meaning that the brain business is the objective/exterior correlate to the subjective/interior mind business, with the one not being reduced to the other.

Here’s a cobbling of two Wilber quotes you might find interesting, especially the last sentence:

There is simply no way a premodern saint, in deep meditation on the nature of the soul, would or could know that his or her brain-wave patterns were settling into theta-alpha states; no way to know that serotonin was increasing, neural lactic acid was decreasing, cellular oxygen requirements were significantly diminishing, and hemispheric lateralization was occurring.

During any spiritual, religious, or nonordinary state of consciousness, what are the neurophysiological and brain-state correlates? These might be investigated by PET scans, EEG patterns, physiological markers, and so on. Conversely, what are the effects of various types of physiological and pharmacological agents on consciousness? An enormous amount of this type of research has already been done, of course, and it continues at an increasing pace. Consciousness is clearly linked in complex ways to objective biological and neurophysiological systems, and continued research on these correlations is surely an important agenda. This type of consciousness research--anchored in the brain side of the brain-mind connection--is now one of the most prevalent in conventional consciousness studies, and I wholeheartedly support it as providing some crucial pieces of the overall puzzle. Nobody, however, has successfully demonstrated that consciousness can be reduced without remainder to those objective systems; and it is patently obvious that phenomenologically it cannot.

And with that, welcome back, Chris.

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