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chela2020
Slow Down
(2/4/04 8:19 am)
Reply 		Re: TOUCH OF THE GURU NEEDED, CHANGING KRIYA CAUSING PROBLEM
Walrus,

I see that you want us to discuss Yogananda in another section. Can you move this thread to that area? Thank you.

Also, just learned that Yogananda had told Agnes Nerode that he received a postcard from India saying that he was now Paramahansa, but no one, not even she, ever saw that postcard.

Interested that Swami Satyeswarananda never calls him "Paramahansa" only "Swami." My feeling from reading the book is just as Nerode said, He was a swami. No one would have followed him if he wasn't. Why he didn't know the sadhu mantra could be that it was never taught to him.

jyotirmoy
Registered User
(2/5/04 7:49 am)
Reply 		Re: TOUCH OF THE GURU NEEDED, CHANGING KRIYA CAUSING PROBLEM
First, thanks to everyone on this thread. It has been good for me to realize that, even after decades, I'm still somewhat attached to Yogananda. I needed to see this, and break the attachment. But I still feel none of us would be talking about him, if he hadn't given us something good -- through his fantasy and mythmaking and collecting of other people's ideas and sayings (call it "plagiarism" or "anthologizing").

Three axioms on teachers:

From the Hindu tradition: "When the disciple is ready, the guru will appear," with its corollary, "It is the disciple who makes the guru," not the other way around.

From the Jesus tradition: "Do what they say, not what they do."

From the Buddhist tradition, the metaphor of the rusty pipe: If the water is pure at its source, and the flow is strong, it will come through for us to drink, even if the pipe is rusty (i.e., dharma is true, even if the dharma transmitter is faulty in his/her practice).

All we have to do is go back to Lahiri Mahasaya, in order to find an authentic teacher: no miracles (according to his great-grandson, the owner of his original home in Varanasi/Banaras); no making people sign pledges or renounce their previous spiritual heritage before kriya initiation (his Muslim disciples remained Muslims, etc.); householder life OK for kriya practice no less than monastic life; no plagiarism in his writings (his sons, grandsons, and great-grandson were esteemed scholars and university professors).

I appreciate the suggestions about a Jungian reading of the AY. We have in Babaji an excellent symbol of the Self archetype (at least he has been so for me).

Also OK is the analogy between Yogananda and Tolkien. The greater genius was without question Tolkien, at least as a man of letters. But Yogananda also created his mythical world, rich in symbols, attractive to people because the AY universe responds to, and resonates with, what we have in us by nature and by our respective spiritual cultures, whether Jewish or Christian or Hindu or whatever. If we want to reread the AY as a myth, we may get a lot more out of it, than if we take it as gospel truth to the letter.

Also, think about this: three of the best-selling autobiographies of the twentieth century were written in the late forties by monks: Yogananda (1947), Thomas Merton ("The Seven Storey Mountain," also entitled "Elected Silence," 1948) , and Bede Griffiths ("The Golden String," 1954). All three are still in print, have been widely translated, and gain new readers every day.

Edited by: jyotirmoy at: 2/5/04 8:02 am
ugizralrite
Registered User
(2/5/04 9:11 am)
Reply 		Re: TOUCH OF THE GURU NEEDED, CHANGING KRIYA CAUSING PROBLEM
Good post jyotirmoy.

Yesterday my mind kind of ran away with me and I lost the light so to speak. So today I was a little apprehensive in my meditation since my guru images have been removed as a bridge to spirit. I was going nowhere until it popped into my head to open my eyes. At which point I looked at my surroundings with all the mundane wonder of form and function. I was pulled out of my worrying mind and back into the present moment. My bridge to spirit in the absence of a personal savior had become appreciation of spirit's mundane gifts, the little things of life.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(2/5/04 10:51 am)
Reply 		Re: TOUCH OF THE GURU NEEDED, CHANGING KRIYA CAUSING PROBLEM
Thank you both for those last posts. I agree that Lahiri's linage is a good way to go for those who want Kriya, but what is wrong with Sri Yukteswar's? He wasn't into the powers or into changing writings.

Ugiz: Your post rather saddened me. I don't know if it was meant to be sad since you pulled yourself out of it. Someday, if you find you want a guru in your life, you will find one again. Just test him very carefully. But it certainly doesn't mean that you can't have Yogananda, after all even Sri Ramakrishna said, "Even if your guru visits a bar, he is still your guru," but of course, that is up to you. For me, I needed one who didn't have all those problems. Somehow though, I imagine that Yogananda is still helping us all from the other side. How sad he must feel.

How much easier it would have been for us if SRF had not made him out to be perfect, then maybe we could have accepted him more easily after learning these things about him. Maybe. I think of how Swami Satyananda continued to run his school and be his friend even though he knew he was making big mistakes. He loved him unconditionally. Sometimes, I realize that I still love him too, just not the same, because he brought me back to God, whether it was his writings or Swami Dhirananda's, the idea is that he made it possible. For many years I knew certain things to be true about him, and I just felt sad as I realized my love was dwindling, but as time went on the sadness left, and God helped me to find my way.

By the way, I tried to move the posts, but then those who posted would not be able to change their posts, so I deleted and just wrote to Walrus to see if they could move all of "The Real Question" to the last thread.

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 2/5/04 12:12 pm
apsarasRLD
Registered User
(2/6/04 3:25 pm)
Reply 		Re: TOUCH OF THE GURU NEEDED, CHANGING KRIYA CAUSING PROBLEM
"Personal idiosyncracies, possessed even by masters lend a rich complexity to life".
I am highly amused by how wonderfully the editing of that story above lend it such an interestingly mystic sidelight.
Hey there wasn't a lie told in Yogananda's version just a few strategic omissions.
No wonder Bro. Dharmananda said 'it's the best SF I ever read!'.
Thank you for that and I hope the full translation of Satyananda's book will be online soon!
Yogananda like a Power Worker hauled in a huge harvest in the short span of his life and a couple of apples dropped out of the baskets and some of it wasn't finished yet.
A perfectionist is never done (look at Mrinalini 50 years later) , and Yogananda had a whole lot of other things on his mind to be a perfectionist all the time.
But he got a lot done.




SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(2/6/04 6:04 pm)
Reply 		Re: TOUCH OF THE GURU NEEDED, CHANGING KRIYA CAUSING PROBLEM
There is a certain 'style' each writer has that is his own unique voice. All of the writings of PY have his unique voice. Hence, it's doubtful to me that a group of "editors" were hired to spin PY's yarn. Stylistically, that's a hard pill to swallow.

That he took literary *mystical* license to make the book appealing, doesn't bother me in the least.

Finally, as a writer, and someone who knows how difficult it is to write anything, the body of work that Paramahansa Yoganada produced is phenomenal, and that it remains stylistically the same (even with edits) is nothing short of a miracle, no matter who is behind the curtain.



Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/11/04 4:52 pm
YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(2/7/04 10:17 pm)
Reply
Writing Styles
> SayItIsntSo wrote: “there is a certain 'style' each writer has that is his own unique voice. All of the writings of PY have his unique voice. Hence, it's doubtful to me that a group of "editors" were hired to spin PY's yarn.”

It's a fact that SRF has heavily edited his works. That's one of the major complaints on this board. Stylistically one can't tell the difference.

SRF editors could potentially, with out too much difficulty, produce an entire book by him that he never actually wrote, and it would be near impossible to tell the difference. The work of good editors is to match someone's style. And how much more easy to do when you're surrounded constantly by his writings such as the SRF editors are. It's like hanging out with someone and starting to talk like them. It rubs off on you if you let it.

A voice in the supermarket 
Slow Down
(2/8/04 11:52 am)
Reply
Re: You have been heard!
After a dream:

Say, you have been heard.

On the Cult Busters I have gathered key points from your postings and added headlines. They are:

1 WHY ISN'T YOGANANDA'S TEACHINGS BLAZING WHEN THEY FAILED ME?

2 ON MY DEATH-BED I WISH I COULD FIND A FINE CONVICTION TOO

3 NOW I HAVE A PRETTY WELL-ROUNDED DAUGHTER AND FEEL GUILT ABOUT HER

4 I ENJOYED MY SPIRITUAL-BULLY-MONKS AND THE DEMANDED PHOTOS

5 A SENIOR SRF MONK IS JUST AN SRF'ER, REMEMBER!

6 IN THOSE RUINED FROM SRF'S YOGANANDA TEACHINGS AND OTHER WRONG TEACHINGS, THERE IS NO ONE INSIDE TO GO WITCH-HUNTING


The cavalcade on the Cult Busters is found under "General Discussion" and called "SRF Dissatisfaction".
pub177.ezboard.com/fcultb...D=18.topic

The special arrangement of old topics and easily be escalated. There is room for comments that may augment the value too.

Kind greetings,
Voice


Edited by: A voice in the supermarket  at: 2/8/04 11:54 am
entheogenesis
Registered User
(2/8/04 12:01 pm)
Reply
Christ & SRF Thread
It appears that the entire "Christ and SRF" thread has been deleted ... or has it simply been moved?

jyotirmoy
Registered User
(2/8/04 2:43 pm)
Reply 		Re: Christ & SRF Thread
I was looking for it too, and was told it is no more. Is there anyone on the Walrus we can ask about it?

chela2020
Slow Down
(2/8/04 5:49 pm)
Reply 		Re: Christ & SRF Thread
It looks like it has been moved to Not in the Main Stream.

entheogenesis
Registered User
(2/8/04 10:06 pm)
Reply
Re: Christ & SRF Thread
Ahh, thanks for the info Chela2020. I guess it really didn't belong under this section, so cheers to the Walrus Committee for their house cleaning efforts. :)

chela2020
Slow Down
(2/9/04 4:46 am)
Reply 		Understanding the dangers of Kriya
I learned more about pranayama the other day. If you don’t have a guru to help you with it, it can ruin your heart and lungs, and sometimes it can make you go crazy. This goes along with something Swami Satyeswarananda said in his book about Kriya, which we all know now is pranayama:

1.“The seeker receives the true Kriya of that state directly from the mouth of the guru.” Page 257

2. In the 70s, the author was visiting Yogananda’s hermitage boys’ school. Al,so Panckori De, disciple of Swami Kebalananda, principal, Post-graduate Teacher’s Traning College of Sevayatan was visting Swami Bidyananda (disciple of Yogananda).

Mr. De asked one of the students if he was a Kriya practioner. He said Yes, and then he asked him how he practiced so he showed him. Mr. De then said, “No wonder your health is so weak.”

3.Yogananda made three changes. He modified the nature of the head movement. He modified the place for Viksha (begging). Also, his teaching instructs that the last three aksaras of the Mantra be put inn places which are different than in original Kriya tradition.

If the mantra is chanted in the wrong places, bad results are produced. Kahiri Mahasay clearly wrote in two of his Letters to the Disciples that one should practice strictly according to the instructions.

Many put attention in each center and do not make Japa in each center. In this case, the practice becomes negative…Making oneself interiorized during inhaling and exhaling, Japa should be proper at each center. If such Japa is not practiced strictly according to the instructions, then the Kriya practice becomes negative. p. 58 Lahiri Mahasay’s Personal Letters to Kriya Disciples by the author. p. 273. Kriya, Finding the True Path.

“Every path has its own rules and regulations; each path is complete to itself, a proven path. Some ancient yogis amng the realized have revealed the message, or the discipline. It will be in the fitness of righteous spirit to accept the discipline in entirely with all its implications. No one, Indian or Western yogi, hs any right to amend, modify, or adjust anything of an ancient Indian spiritual discipline. In fact, there is no room for it, as the disciplines are all proven paths to Eternity.” Page 278.

In regards to those at Ranchi, a complaint is made that many on this board have made, including myself:

"Many had enrolled in the correspondence courses to learn Kriya, and receive lessons through the mail. As a result, many devotees had never been to Ranchi. Some were not satisfied when they received the answers to their questions through mail.

The Indian devotees who were educated and well versed in Vedic culture wondered why such answers were beng given by the Indian Swamis; the devotees expected better answers. Being disappointed, when some visited Ranchi, they found to their utter suprise that the Brahmacharis and Swamis were Americans and Westerners who had assumed the nams of Indian Brahmacharis and Swamis and who dressed accordingly". Page 235.


SsSsSnake
Registered User
(2/9/04 10:11 am)
Reply 		Re: Christ & SRF Thread
www.boards2go.com/boards/...ser=Kriya0]

SsSsSnake
Registered User
(2/9/04 10:13 am)
Reply 		Re: Understanding the dangers of Kriya
www.boards2go.com/boards/...user=Kriya

SsSsSnake
Registered User
(2/9/04 10:14 am)
Reply 		Re: Christ & SRF Thread
Re(1): answer to archive regarding Satyeswarananda:rollin

nagchampa2
Registered User
(2/9/04 10:47 am)
Reply 		Dangers of Kriya
Sssnake,

Thanks, I searched the archives and this is what I found on the Kriya boad, as well as their posting on Walrus. In one other post I found evidence of how Kriya can harm some people:

And so far I have found one good comment about Swami Satyeswarananda on Walrus: By Four,four,four, four: "After spending 25 years after the divorce of my parents asking myself the question, "When everything that can be taken away is gone, what's left?", I met Swami Satyeswarananda Giri. (A stroke of luck I still can't believe) When I met him I immediately felt as if I had *come home* and my search was over.

I spent the next 3 months with him, myself typing the manuscript for one of his books about Sri Yukteswar, while Baba gave voice to the stories about Krishna and Arjuna, which he brought to life in a way that merely reading the stories could have never done. I was not interested in Kriya in the slightest and he never pushed it on me, as if it would make any difference to our being together if I was somehow more like a disciple than an ordinary person.

One day as we were sitting in a room facing each other, still informally, the room turned into dazzling intelligent light and I became known as myself, then He and I, then beyond the bodies and minds, then just a spot of intensely compressed knowingness, (beyond subject/object), and finally, I don't know. I don't remember when and where I woke up after having gone unconscious for I don't know how long. At that moment, my question was answered once and for all, never to be *unknown* (needing to be asked) again. That was 20 years ago.

Why am I writing this? To add a human face to Baba, to validate the ability he has to awaken sincere seekers, (in my case someone who had been looking desparately for 25 years under every rock, nook, and cranny, for God, until I couldn't take another breath without him) and because I
think it's important that folks don't think they know him because of the distance he keeps from the public. It took me 25 years of struggle to find him, so anyone expecting it should be given to them as easily as *joining a group*, may be disgruntled at their lack of immediate success, instant access, and the inability to make happen anything that isn't providentially slated to happen. After 20 years I am finally ready to start practicing Kriya".

Someone else said: "After I started practicing SRF's Kriya yoga I immediately felt the energy moving in the spine. But after a few weeks i started experiencing discomfort in the spine. The energy would only travel like halfway up my back and then stop there and start to hurt a little bit. I continued practicing but it did not feel good like Yogananda says in his books that it should feel good to feel the energy up and down spine. After a while the pain became more intense and starting wrapping around my whole torso from the middle of my spine around the front, hurting very much in the heart area and in the opposite area in the back. The I started experiencing awful burning and itching sensations all over my body. I was going crazy. I started going to doctors, got all the medical tests, they could not find anything physically wrong. They asked if I was doing drugs! I have NEVER ever used an illegal substance in my life, not even once! I do not even take any legal medications, and I am in good health otherwise with no medical problems. The doctors said it must be mental, but I have no mental problems either! I asked several SRF counselors but they dismissed me saying "Everybody who practices kriya benefits and gets good feelings". Well, I am doing it correctly, a monk even checked my practice, and said I was doing it correctly. I stopped doing kriya for a while and it got a little better but the enrgies still travel all over my body all by themselves and it is driving me crazy, I feel like I am going to lose my mind! I started doing Kriya again and it worsened it so I am sure Kriya has to do with it. Remember this all started when I started doing kriya several years ago. Has anybody experienced anything similar to this? Sometimes I feel that if this continues I will end up taking my own life. I don't think I can live the rest of my life with these awful sensations running all over my body. Thank you kindly for any help".

Another person wrote:

"The discourse found in the book "Babaji - the Divine Himalayan Yogi" between Babaji and Satyeswarananda is very similar to the Patravali letters written by Lahiri Mahasay , this was my observation .

And another:

"The changes made by Yogananda are described in
"Kriya - Finding the True Path". I highly recommend
reading it. You can find a description of it at www.sanskritclassics.com

Swami Satyeswarananda is not resentful of the treatment
of Swami Satyananda by Yogananda. This is a red herring which has been mentioned before on the internet, but it is simply not true.

Satyeswarananda lived with Babaji at Dunagiri Hill. I found the
discourse found in the book "Babaji - the Divine Himalayan Yogi" between Babaji and Satyeswarananda to be very inspiring".




Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 2/11/04 3:00 am
nagchampa2
Registered User
(2/9/04 12:04 pm)
Reply 		Leaving the Guru
Ranger20,

Back to our conversaton of long ago. Here is what I had found on the net and then what I wrote to the person who had the website. (Just one of the many whom I have asked this question to.)

From:
To: info@purebhakti.com
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:13 PM
Subject: About www.purebhakti.com

Hi,

I just read your lecture on "When can you change your Disksa-Guru?" It was most interesting. I have a question: If a person leaves his/her guru for any reason, perhaps just a lack of faith in him, does this person then have to go through many lifetimes before he/she can return to find a guru again? Is there anything in the scriptures that would even suggest this?

Thank you,

…….

Dear….

In order to answer your question properly there are two factors which need clarification:

1st is whether the guru or spiritual master is actually a spiritual master according to the definition of sastra. If he is not then this makes a big difference. To give up a bona fide guru is very unfortunate. To give up a false guru is very auspiscious.

2nd is that if the aspiring disciple does not have sufficient faith to follow his or her spiritual master then there was never a question that this aspiring disciple has taken shelter and is initiated. Initiation is only there when the faith of the disciple is free from any doubts and he has given his heart to the bona fide spiritual master.

I am looking forward to your reply.

Aspiring for the service of Sri Guru and Vaisnavas

Brajanath das

www.purebhakti.com/lectur...215a.shtml (Article on “When Can You Change Your Disksa-Guru”.)

ranger20
Registered User
(2/9/04 3:35 pm)
Reply 		Re: Leaving the Guru
nag,

Thanks, and please post additional updates as you explore this theme over time. Elements of this exchange bring to mind several questions:

>If a person leaves his/her guru for any reason, perhaps just a lack of faith in him, does this person then have to go through many lifetimes before he/she can return to find a guru again?

This little word "a," as in "any." The SRF quotes I've posted suggest that the organizational stance is, if you leave, you won't find any guru for a while. This is punitive. I don't think God is punitive, though I do think SRF is.

However, it might well be many lives, if ever, before I'm involved in SRF again, and that would would not be punitive, but a matter of learning, and trial and error, and choice. I can imagine a "choice" in the astral, "Want to be born into an SRF family?" At the present time, my answer would be, "Nope." I may have to ride the bullock cart for a while, but I'm not up for surrendering my heart again, as the price of admission to the airplane.

>>To give up a bona fide guru is very unfortunate. To give up a false guru is very auspiscious.

It strikes me that there's a lot in this message that I don't know. What does it mean to "give up" a guru? I know what it means to give up SRF, but I'm not sure what it means to "give up" the guru. What, by the way, would a "bona fide guru" be like? I have known, in other areas of life, several out and out frauds, and having once discovered that, I never gave then a second thought. I think deeply of Yogananda every day, many times. Does that mean he's "bona fide?" Does that mean I haven't "given him up?" I do not know, and by now I'm way worn out from worrying about it. I expect the separation will be analagous to Frodo's wound - never entirely pain free. Still, my heart says it wants to take it's place with the other popcorn eaters on the bullock cart.

As far as initiation, it's pretty clear that it was the BOD that moved to have the guru-disciple relationship, and exclusive church membership piggy backed onto Kriya, ca. 1960. How bona fide does that make it?

I am reminded of an old story from the middle ages, of a man who was a bit of a rascal, but a great devotee of the Virgin Mary. St. Peter firmly barred the pearly gates when he got there, but Mary had told him to come around to the back side. She'd left a window open for him, so that's how he got into heaven.

-- Ranger on the bullock cart, looking for an ally at the back door.

Edited by: ranger20 at: 2/9/04 3:37 pm
SayItIsntSo
Registered User
(2/9/04 4:20 pm)
Reply 		Re: You have been heard!
Someone took quotes of mine and posted them on another site.


Edited by: SayItIsntSo at: 2/11/04 4:54 pm
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