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soulcircle
Registered User
(6/22/03 4:35 pm)
Reply 		Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Guests, username, and All,

In a longer post username discusses the harm done by bringing people into a cult.
See the topic June 2003 under the menu item Layoffs

All nuns and monks are bringing people into a cult and harming lives, some deeply. Please all nuns and monks, leave SRF.

One sentence from username's post mentioned above, 3:59PM 06/22 follows:

Quote:
They either need to leave OR they should be put in jail.


soulcircle

crogman1
Registered User
(6/29/03 6:19 am)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Part of the cult delusion they are wrapped up in has them believing they are serving Master. How many people have come to Master, seen SRF, assumed they were the same, and left Master? THOUSANDS

They did not leave because they were turned off by Master's teachings. They left because they saw that SRF has now character, no moral authority. It is a corrupt cult.

CrashLanded
Registered User
(7/5/03 11:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
RE: asking Deva,Mitra,Jaya, and Atmananda to leave.

Though in a way I understand the request....and where it comes from.... I would not want them to leave.... they are the only hope for the monastic order and for SRF's future.

The Kali Yuga party in the monastic order has won the battle, but it's winning the war that matters. It is their prerogative to stay or leave, to believe they can still do some good, they can still work for what Master's envisioned.

What they see, think, or believe cannot be assumed.

Borg108
Registered User
(7/6/03 7:39 am)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
There are a FEW monastics who clearly see the problems and shortcomings of SRF but choose to stay because the lifestyle suits them. In SRF monastic life, you can't help but be regular in your meditations. You are obligated to attend group ones twice day. You have regular spiritual classes, the company of spiritual companions, and nine day spiritual retreats twice a year. You also have fewer distractions and temptations than you would have out in the world. There are some here who may not believe this, but celibacy can be a potent spiritual force for those who can handle it. Monastic life makes this much more feasible.

For perspective on this, the catholic church has a long history of misdeeds and harmful behavior (inquisition, crusades, pedophilia), yet there have always been a few within it who have become saints while adhering to a monastic lifestyle.

I respect (but not adulate) those who have chosen a life of renunciation and self discipline. SRF monastics who see the light but chose to stay within the order for the sake of their spiritual development should stand up for what is right and try to affect change and reform whenever they have the opportunity to do so, just as Christ overthrew the money changers in the temple and stood up to the scribes and pharisees of his time. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be happening much. Some who come to see the light eventually leave in frustration, while most of the others just resign themselves to the status quo. This is the tragic part, IMO.

X Insider
Registered User
(7/7/03 2:21 pm)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Sorry, Borg. But there are plenty of monastics who do not meditate regularly. Some who never attend the group meditations. And what is the evidence that the meditations of the "regular ones" are helping them spiritually? Their behavior?

Borg108
Registered User
(7/7/03 8:04 pm)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
XMan,

My experience there was that those few who didn't meditate regularly ended up leaving. Your point is a good one about knowing others by the fruits of their actions - and there is definitely something rotten in SRF land. But some there chose to put up with that, just as some christian saints were able to overlook the heinous actions of that church and commune with God despite such things. My sensitivities and sense of righteousness, as well as some unfulfilled desires, to be really honest, wouldn't allow me to stay on there. I can't judge those who stay for spiritual reasons. I don't, however, see how they can stay on while keeping quiet about all the wrongdoings there. That's just my take on things though. We all see things a bit differently.

Edited by: Borg108 at: 7/8/03 7:11 am
Lobo
Registered User
(7/7/03 11:33 pm)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Isn't it mandatory, as it once certainly was, for all monastics to not only meet twice each day for group meditation, but to precede each session with a group practice of the Energization Exercises?

When did this stop? Or is it, maybe, just for the postulates and brahmacharyas mandatory; sannyasi's being left to their own spiritual practices?

Kriyananda as the head of the monks, he writes in his book the Path, says that while PY was alive PY ran it along the lines of an Indian ashram, allowing each renunciate to meditate as they chose. But after PY's demise K states that he instituted the above program, with D's approval for the monks, and it was then adopted for the nuns as well.

When Premamoy was the head of the monks did he inforce the twice daily program? If so, then whoever is now the head of the monks, did they allow the loosening of the program? If so, when?

Thanks,

PS: When on a SRF retreat the retreatant follows the twice daily program with the monastics. One is made to feel that it is a staple of all SRF ashram life. More than that in fact, the foundation of the harmonious ashram life and discipline.

For if the ashram renunciates aren't meditating, what does that say to those in the world-devotee's who, without a doubt have much greater tests and temptations, everywhere and all the time, which seek to lure the devotee from the his cushion? Maybe there is a lesson in this for those who seek to practice while living in the material world. To paraphrase what the Buddha taught, we must each light our own lamp to light our way.

Borg108
Registered User
(7/8/03 7:22 am)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Lobo,

Those in orange have the option of attending the group meditations or not. In India they usually attend - here they often don't. All others are supposed to attend, although there can be exceptions with some of the senior monks. Postulants are given no slack on this. All monastics are suppossed to have private meditaions in addition to the group ones. The whole purpose of SRF monastic life is have a deep interior life. Those unwilling to make meditation effort have no place there and invariably leave. As XInsider points out, meditating regularly does not ensure proper conduct. Sri Yukteswar says we must also learn to behave.

Edited by: Borg108 at: 7/15/03 5:45 am
OneTaste
Registered User
(7/8/03 7:56 am)
Reply 		Oh, Brother, Where art Thou?
Quote:
When on a SRF retreat the retreatant follows the twice daily program with the monastics. One is made to feel that it is a staple of all SRF ashram life. More than that in fact, the foundation of the harmonious ashram life and discipline.


When I was living at HV, there were monks who were at the meditations and those who rarely, if ever, attended. Bimilananda was pretty much always there, nodding off notwithstanding, and I get the sense that his reason for doing so was to set an example. Dharmananda was never there, but that was probably due to his ill-health. Dev was only there when he was leading the long ones, but Brahmachari Lee was pretty solid. There were postulant folk who never were there, so I don't know if it is a hierarchical thing or not.

As a resident, you get the speech about it being mandatory, but it isn’t enforced. After I found the Walrus, while working on a project for the VLA newsletter, well, it changed everything and going to the meditations in the chapel was quite uncomfortable. It took a month before anyone said anything. HV is strictly an SRF backwater, so I can’t say if it is indicative of other ashram routines, but the attendance at the group meds was very spotty, especially in the morning. Everybody made it to breakfast, though. ;)

Quote:
For if the ashram renunciates aren't meditating, what does that say to those in the world-devotee's who, without a doubt have much greater tests and temptations, everywhere and all the time, which seek to lure the devotee from the his cushion?

On this score of meditation, I agree with you, Lobo. But I’m no longer one to think that life out here is guaranteed to be the tougher lot. While it is true that out here the temptations are aplenty, I saw from my 4 months living in that environment that it is in no way a sanctuary from tests. Far from it. I noticed after the first week that things that we can easily diffuse and overlook come rushing to the surface. Real shadow stuff. In speaking to others, I learned that I wasn’t the only one getting pummeled by such. After the “ooh, this is heaven” period, up comes the feverous criticism of everything and everyone, the voice of the eternal/internal critic. Coming on the heals of the wonder, it’s kinda brutal. Add to this the fact that you are living with and interacting with the same 40 or so people all the time and it can be pretty intense. Add to this that so much is repressed and not allowed to be expressed because everyone is supposed to be pure and holy (and we all know how true that is, and it is a psychological nightmare waiting to happen.

I can only extrapolate how hard it is for the lifers. It’s a pressure cooker with no outlets beyond the volleyball or basketball. No wonder movie night outscored the meditations in a romp.

Quote:
Maybe there is a lesson in this for those who seek to practice while living in the material world. To paraphrase what the Buddha taught, we must each light our own lamp to light our way.


I think you are correct here. My experience, along with the tales of terror here has led me to the disturbing question of the value of monastic life at all. Though it certainly had its purpose historically, perhaps its time has passed. It doesn’t seem to be in tune with the times, or at all approaching healthy, as far as I can see.

As the day of the individual dawns (ever so slowly and in fits and starts), group adherence and safety provides less and less succor and safety. Far from lighting their own lamp, many don’t even seem to realize that they have one. Or, if they do, that they are supposed to, or even allowed to light it without the approval, permission, and strict guidelines laid down by their "superiors." Oh, but we live in interesting times, eh?

soulcircle
Registered User
(7/8/03 11:41 am)
Reply 		what say you?.....nuns and monks leave
Guests, non-memeber SRF employees, Hi All,

All people who remain clearly [officially part of SRF], who are not clearly bringing up let the buyer beware, let along saying let's get off these grounds, now, and adjourn to a private home
All people, not just monastics, are drawing sheep [the sheep ARE responsible for their own actions, AND we are for ours
...All people draw others into a "shitty environment!"
The quote is from a ten year former monk who left recently.

You, me and ALL, the environment you are aligned to and the grounds you are on, a mixed bag like all the world, is shitty, especially in that most people are smiling, adoring any monk who might be scheduled in the next year, and not discussing freely many taboo topics, such as lay people are second-class, and ALL power is held a dozen hands secretly, and your money goes so far afield that SRF is not a non-profit group.

So deva, mitra, jaya and atman, it's your turn to decide
are you part of the problem or part of the solution
and as you have had over 2 years since March '01 to decide
you have 5 seconds to decide

Dave

Edited by: soulcircle at: 7/8/03 11:42 am
soulcircle
Registered User
(7/9/03 10:11 am)
Reply 		PLs leave nuns and monks and donating non-members and member
All,
Please leave~~~~ what say you? ~~Thanks

[BTW] I found this thread only from clicking on CrashLanded's posts in his profile......DOES this thread show up, not the one started by me, does this one show up in Core Issues??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Guests, non-memeber SRF employees, Hi All,

All people who remain clearly [officially part of SRF], who are not clearly bringing up let the buyer beware, let along saying let's get off these grounds, now, and adjourn to a private home
All people, not just monastics, are drawing sheep [the sheep ARE responsible for their own actions, AND we are for ours
...All people draw others into a "shitty environment!"
The quote is from a ten year former monk who left recently.

You, me and ALL, the environment you are aligned to and the grounds you are on, a mixed bag like all the world, is shitty, especially in that most people are smiling, adoring any monk who might be scheduled in the next year, and not discussing freely many taboo topics, such as lay people are second-class, and ALL power is held a dozen hands secretly, and your money goes so far afield that SRF is not a non-profit group.

So deva, mitra, jaya and atman, it's your turn to decide
are you part of the problem or part of the solution
and as you have had over 2 years since March '01 to decide
you have 5 seconds to decide

Dave

soulcircle
Registered User
(7/9/03 10:13 am)
Reply 		oops sorry for double entry
Laughing, take a deep breathe and relax soulcircle

~~~~~i see how clicking on posts via profiles works......it doesn't show beginning of thread??

oops

CrashLanded
Registered User
(7/10/03 1:06 am)
Reply 		Re: deva, mitra, jaya, atma \medit
RE: meditat. in the ashrams.
I was some years in the ashram and this is my experience:
1. monastic group meditation:
All young monks in training must attend unless a duty prevent them to do so. Their counserlor can reprimand them. Older monks have more of a choice (it is assumed they have established a personal routine of medit.), but group medit. is enphasized. At the end it doesn't matter the color, it is what position of power one holds, the higher, the least one is accountable.

2. People who don' t medit. leave the ashram:
Generally it is true BUT many who do not meditate or who are bad meditators end up staying. Some are just not good at it (very few are) and some are more karma yogis (most Jani leave because the dogmatic atmosphere doesn't allow them to breath or think for themselves, a necessity for such a path, unlike the baktis). Most non-meditators who end up staying do so out of 'codependency' and other similar psychol. / emotional issues, until it is too late to leave, due to age, finances, fears, disabilities, habits, delusions, the list goes on.

3. Deva, Jaya, Mitra, Atma, invitation to leave:
Let's face it, Kaly Yuga attitudes prevail in the ashram and in the membership-- SRF is not going to disappear any time soon. At times I see SRF as the spawn of the membership, it is so bad becasue the members are so backward, dogmatic, etc.
Out here, we can stir some trouble but in a few years all of us will probably be gone ( I don't wish it though inside the ashram this consideration is probably seriously contemplated). Walrus is only one of the many things we have to deal in our lives...., jobs, relationships, illnesses, scattered energies, and so on, will lead us away. SRF, in spite of how wrong it could be, will still be there, just because someone, meditator or not meditator, will be seating on a pillow and living inside the walls. I 'd prefer that the few brothers who have some understanding stay and, directly (not anytime soon by how they have been neutralized) or indirectly, influence the org. Out here their value would be diminished in the membership's eyes.

Spirituality, even when filtered through religion, is not just a party affiliation, it has many facets, one of them is that it's born from the hope that things can get better and eventually change with the help of God. For years those brothers trusted Master being behind it, and they probably believe that if their efforts didn't succeed, somehow Master wants it that way, or is not the right time yet. They are themselves the creations of SRF's thinking attitudes, one cannot live inside for 20 or 30 years and not being influenced, I know I was.

When the pope dies, they make another. Let's hope our popess will pass away soon to the heaven she so greatly deserves, if luck holds, she will be soon followed by her voracious and mindless lapdogs, the sooner the better. ( I feel frurstrated by the matas- I do not necessarily hate them though a long time ago, someone should have slapped them on their spiritual behind)!





Lobo
Registered User
(7/10/03 7:51 pm)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Borg,

Thanks for the information. And I very much agree with X-insider's, and your insight, about meditation being a panacea. It's sad that SRF doesn't publicly admit this. It goes to the problem of never admitting one's problems, they tell us PY taught them, for to do so just makes them more concrete and powerful. "Starve a problem and feed an affirmation!"

Jack Kornfield has a lot to say about this very issue in his book, "After the Ecstacy, the Laundry." But then again, besides being a former Buddhist monk, longtime and deeply respected Buddhist meditation teacher, now husband and father, he's a psychologist. So he has seen through the whole meditation will make everything better claim. Anyway, it's a timely book about a subject which "dares not to speak its name."

Sri Yukteswarji jai!

Lobo
Registered User
(7/10/03 8:12 pm)
Reply 		Re: Oh, Brother, Where art Thou?
One Taste,

Thanks for that wisdom-filled update on the rigors of ashram/HV life for the person trying to live a life therein. I've been a couple of times to "week-end retreats" at HV. That's not anywhere near enough to gage what it's really like to live that life. The first time I really dug it; even finding myself fantasizing about, and picturing myself as a renunciate meditating before dawn in lonely cell, "God-alone" supreme in my mind. How happy it would be to have the support of fellow brothers seeking the same. Harmony and goodness abounded.

The second time I didn't feel the same way. During the first night's talk by Dharmananda he was instructing us in the proper posture for meditation. I had already heard this many times in the past, and had tried to put into practice in my own life; so, I just closed my eyes (I was sitting in the front row "trying to get closer to the good vibes") to do a little Hong-Sau. Well, Dharmananda quickly stopped his teaching, raised his voice and said, "I didn't tell you to close your eyes!"

When I quickly opened my eyes he was staring right at me, as was pretty much everyone else. I just tried to look contrite, but inwardly I thought, "how dare him. I've just flown over a thousand miles to come here and meditate, who is he to think that he can control what I do. I wasn't hurting anyone" Then, to make things final I thought, "God, he's on some kind of control kick."

Well the rest of the weekend went fine, but I saw things differently. I realized that I didn't feel less than, even though Dharmananda had spent decades as a monk, and that was important. I'd lost the whole worshipping-the-monks-mindset that had been with me from the entire time of my membership in SRF until that day. Now he was just another, albeit greatly wiser, brother-disciple; who probably had his own private problems, just like I.

As for the death of monks. The Catholic one's seem to be a good example of what can go wrong, event though the bad one's are a small minority. But in India as I understand it (Borg and others can certainly correct me if I'm wrong), those who are renunciates aren't necessarily tied to an organization, instead being sannyasi's or sadhu's, roaming and not spending too much time in one place. SRF's model seems to be a conglomeration of the Catholic order grafted onto sannyasi's. Not too sure that will last.

Best

OneTaste
Registered User
(7/16/03 11:22 am)
Reply 		Re: Oh, Brother, Where art Thou?
Quote:
I just tried to look contrite, but inwardly I thought, "how dare him. I've just flown over a thousand miles to come here and meditate, who is he to think that he can control what I do. I wasn't hurting anyone" Then, to make things final I thought, "God, he's on some kind of control kick."


Hmm. Obviously, I wasn't there, but having a fair deal of experience with Brother D, this doesn’t ring right, Lobo. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but that it doesn’t sound like his style at all. I can see others having control issues, but he just never struck me that way. He’s as laid-back as it gets in orange-land. So, something else might have been up.

Quote:
Well the rest of the weekend went fine, but I saw things differently. I realized that I didn't feel less than, even though Dharmananda had spent decades as a monk, and that was important.


Yes, it would be important, wouldn’t it, and maybe this is the key to it. And yes, of course I am guessing here. Perhaps wildly. So feel free to toss this out with yesterday’s newspaper.


Quote:
I'd lost the whole worshipping-the-monks-mindset that had been with me from the entire time of my membership in SRF until that day. Now he was just another, albeit greatly wiser, brother-disciple; who probably had his own private problems, just like I.


And maybe that was the point, Lobo. Like I said, he’s never struck me as a control freak. Anything but. And, as you said at the time, “who is he to think that he can control what I do?” Who indeed? Maybe his point was to disabuse you of your monk worshipping attitude. Now, I don’t want to commit Walrus apostasy and suggest that he was being omniscient and all of the other stuff many devoidotees assign to these guys, because I know from experience with him directly that he wasn’t, at least when I was living there the first time back in 81. I went to him with a gripe about one of the folks there (a civilian) being abusive and a general pain in the ass, and the whole time we were talking about it, he was assuming I was speaking of another person with the same name. Popped my bubble on that score right there at the tender age of 21. And thank him and God for that.

But omniscience is hardly necessary if your wordshipful attitude might just have been leaking out all over the place. Far from sucking it up, I think many of the monks cringe at such being laid on them all the time. I know Dev does. It’s gotta suck—they can’t live up to it and they can’t be normal, either, lest the devoidotees freak out. (Of course, some may love it and court it, but Dharmananda doesn’t seem to be one of them. He’s too much of a smart-ass and his self-deprecation doesn’t ring false, at least to me.)

Anyway, if in fact this is what he was up to, you don’t think you were going to heed it without a shout, do you, being perhaps deafened by all the “good vibes” you were seeking to get right up in front of? Sure, you weren’t hurting anyone else, but maybe he saw that you were hurting yourself with your attitude.

And, of course, I may be giving him too much credit and have the whole thing all wrong. I wish I could go along with your comment about him being “greatly wiser” than you, but I’m not prepared to buy this. (Gives too much credit to him and too little to you.) He’s the first monk I ever met, and I know a few devotees who think he is wisdom itself, one of whom is in his inner-circle at HV and has been bosom buddies with him for at least 20 years. But I have seen no evidence of this great wisdom whatsoever and find most of what he says in satsangas and in talking with him personally to be superficial at best. I’ve also seen him blow off questions and dodge around them, so I’ve never been impressed with his acuity in the least.

Quote:
SRF's model seems to be a conglomeration of the Catholic order grafted onto sannyasi's. Not too sure that will last.


I think you have an excellent point here, Lobo. Although I may question how much of a small minority of the Catholic monks are the “bad ones,” I think your graft observation is spot on. My distaste for the monastic life-style is no secret, and if it goes the way of history, I will shed no tears, but I do think it is something that some folks would benefit from if they are not tied to an org with the type of mission SRF has undertaken. Wandering about, fine, cloistered, fine, if it is a contemplative order. An org that has set itself up as the harbinger of a new dispensation (to be fair to SRF, they never said the new dispensation, much as that is batted about here) to be spread around the world as a model for householders, well, perhaps going native is the way to go.

Lobo
Registered User
(7/17/03 10:29 pm)
Reply 		Re: Oh, Brother, Where art Thou?
Well, One Taste, I kinda feel like you will deconstruct my thread making me a little more guarded to be sure that what I write passes muster.

Anyway, the incident I referred to happened during the after dinner get the whole retreat rolling talk by the monk, on Friday, the first night of retreat. There was a entire room of men there. I did want to get "good vibes" (sorry for the 60's talk, just can't seem to let it go), or using another term, spiritually helpful and uplifting vibrations emanating from the respected renunciate.

It was a minor thing, for the rest of the men; just a digression in the Brother's talk. My mind (ego) just wanted to meditate and feel some calm and hopefully, peace. I know D from years ago at Fullerton Temple, and perhaps he assumed that because he knew me it was fine for him to single me out. It's not like it crushed me. It just hit me like, "because you wear the saffron robe, Dear Brother, don't think that I came here for spiritual disciplining." Just being honest (so you don't have to deconstruct). The men who live there are there for, in part, spiritual discipline from the senior monks. As a householder, I wasn't (at least then). Maybe he found it hard to separate the two, I don't know. Not that I don't need spiritual disciplining, God that's a given. But there is a difference.

I know that Brother Dharmananda is more wise than me. If not, what does that say about the teachings, their power to change behavior for the better, and in this case, almost 50 years of meditating and putting those teachings into practice. Also I know myself, and accept that there are others who are more advanced than me. That's in the relative world, however; in the Ultimate of course there isn't any higher or lower.

Brother Dharmananda told a group of us that while he was once lecturing at the Lake Shrine a man suddenly stood up and in a loud voice said he was leaving. He said that he didn't have to take it anymore. Brother told us that he was just giving the lecture and wasn't addressing the substance of the lecture to this man at all. He told us that this man had been a faithful devotee for many years; but after that he never came back.

So it quite possible that those of higher vibration become a conduit for exposing the weaknesses of others; all without their being conscious of doing so, while doing it.

Once at Thanksgiving dinner I made a pig of myself and consumed a lot of pecan pie. Then I went to Thursday night services. While meditating, with the lights dimmed, I suddenly felt my head being lifted. I opened my eyes and somehow I'd fallen (not asleep however) onto the man's knee sitting next to me. I'd blacked out somehow. I got up of course and tried to concentrate again. When the short meditation ended I was hit with a case of extreme nausea. I had to get up during the Brother's talk and very publicly walk out of the sanctuary and the church.

The next Sunday I went to the service. Brother Achalanada was lecturing on the true meaning of renunciation. During the talk he used an example, saying therein, "it's like someone who doesn't have self-control enough to not eat too many pieces of pie, and makes himself sick."

I wasn't a member of SRF at the time, and didn't know anyone at the temple, being quite new to the whole Eastern religion thing. So no one could have told Brother Achalananda, but when he finished the above sentence, he paused and looked directly at me.

soulcircle
Registered User
(9/12/03 2:09 am)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Hello Guests, All and you four Brothers,

You four know why the monks spiritual life committee was nixed and why 40 nuns and monks have left.
You four oversaw the Monks Spiritual Life Committee.
Please leave.

The ultimate result of shielding man from the effects of folly is to people the world with fools. – Herbert Spencer

The above is quoted from www.copvcia.com

soulcircle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/12/03 2:10 am
soulcircle
Registered User
(9/12/03 2:14 am)
Reply 		Re: Devanananda, Mitrananda, Jayananda, Atmananda, pls leave
Hello Guests and All,

In response to CrashLanded 07/05 in this thread above,

CrashLanded wrote:
Quote:
The Kali Yuga party in the monastic order has won the battle, but it's winning the war that matters.


The following I find in www.copvcia.com

Quote:
There is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than the creation of a new system. For the initiator has the enmity of all who would profit by the preservation of the old system and merely lukewarm defenders in those who would gain by the new one. – Machiavelli – 1513

Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/12/03 2:17 am
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