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SRF Walrus > Core Issues > Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals
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wholetruth Registered User (9/8/02 6:05 pm) Reply	Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Which point of view best reflects Truth and is most helpful to us spiritually? "Although in our era integrity, honor, and idealism have seemingly vanished under a tidal wave of self-seeking, Gurudeva lived uncompromisingly by the eternal spiritual values.... Paramahansa Yogananda lived what he taught. Some of us were privileged to be in his company over a period of twenty or more years. We had put him on a pedestal--that is to say, above the ordinary religious teacher--and not once during all those years did he ever step down from that height where we had reverently placed him." "The world will not see one like him again for many ages. Long after you and I are forgotten or become faded memories, the life and the divinity of that great one whom we call Guru will continue to inspire souls around the world and remind them that they too can know God." --Sri Daya Mata VS. "In many ways, we create a bigger problem when we put people on a pedestal in our speech than when we cut them down. Whenever we make anyone--a minister, a teacher, an athlete, a genius, our ancestors, the Buddha--bigger than life, it's easy for both you and your listener to forget that the person you're discussing is a human being. And with the passing of time, the person will only become larger until, like Paul Bunyan, they're sixty ax-handles high. "We tend to bunyanize the people we admire. But ths is very dangerous--particularly if your hero is a teacher of the buddha-dharma. You'll forget that you're made of the very same stuff they are. You'll forget that, like them, you're completely equipped to SEE Truth right here, right now. "If you keep putting an enlightened person (or, more accurately, your concept of 'an enlightened person') on a pedestal, you'll miss this critical point, and get lost in confusion. As long as you think enlightenment is something special, you won't wake up. "One of the things my own Zen teacher taught me was (as he put it): 'Final job of teacher: free student of teacher.' "How, then, are you going to allow teachers to finish their work if you keep bunyanizing them? You'll turn your teachers into something grandiose and vain. If you would honor a teacher, you would only need to learn from that teacher, respectfully test their teachings against you own experience, and live with a grateful heart." --Steve Hagen, Zen teacher, from BUDDHISM PLAIN AND SIMPLE Edited by: wholetruth at: 9/8/02 6:17:38 pm
Gitano no divino Registered User (9/9/02 8:50 am) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals This speaks wonderfully well for Zen. Where there is smoke, there is fire, and I suspect that such a sermon is intended to discourage the kind of buyanizing that must go on even in so refined a path as Zen. But the fact that they can identify and treat the disease puts them light years beyond SRF. This is impressive to me.
KS Registered User (9/10/02 5:52 am) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Faye’s words are also a clever physiological trick, probably done completely unconsciously (out of habit). By putting Yogananda up above all others she and SRF are thrust up into a similar position since Faye and SRF are his one and only representative and Faye is his God Realized replacement. A truly humble organization would not need its own leader to be the best of the best. Yogananda was here to teach and explain, not to be recognized as the best or greatest. SRF misses the point at each turn.
wholetruth Registered User (9/10/02 8:45 am) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals I decided it was awfully foolish and presumptuous of me to speculate about PY's level of God-realization. I would have to have some level of realization myself to have any inkling, and I can't make that claim. To those of you who can believe, may it serve you well on your path. I'm still dealing with my doubt, and probably will be for some time. In the past the inspiration did seem genuine, but I guess any really good teacher could accomplish that. Edited by: wholetruth at: 9/12/02 3:47:07 pm
Gitano no divino Registered User (9/12/02 6:17 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals It has been said that it takes a thief to catch a thief. I seem to recall an interview with Sai Baba in which he said that very thing, making the point that only a person with "realization" can certify that someone else is similarly enlightened (as a thief himself, he was in a position to know). This leaves the rest of us completely in the dark, I suppose, and at their mercy--but only if we're credulous enough to believe them. My default position now is: if you claim to be a Master, the burden of proof is on you, not me. If you claim to have mastered the teachings of Patanjali, then you should be able to make yourself bigger and smaller, invisible, lighter than air, etc. You should be able to read others' minds and be able to access any information about anything. It's no good claiming you can do those things and then declining to do so because you don't want to attract curiosity seekers. That's called pious fraud. As someone once noted, it's curious that famous swamis who claim to have miraculous powers choose to demonstrate them in such trivial ways. In an interesting book about Swami Rama (entitled simply, Swami), a story is told how SR demonstrated psycho-kinesis at the Menninger Institute. After several days of strenuous preparations, he managed to use the electrical energy of his body to . . . move a free-hanging pencil about one inch. (He was eventually sued for serial sexual misconduct with his female followers, by the way. He apparently had another free-hanging pencil that routinely moved about six inches. Of course, in the Age of Viagra, there's nothing miraculous about that!) Not unremarkable, that, but not of the same order as walking on water or rising from the dead. Of course, Sai Baba became famous for "materializing" ashes from his forehead (before his sleight-of-hand tricks were exposed on television). I thought ashes were something you got in your Xmas stocking if you were bad. I'd rather have him materialize some money for me, but he kept that for himself. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi claims to be able to train people to levitate (for a heavier-than-air sum of money), but all they really do is hop. I don't recall seeing HIM demonstrating anything remotely like levitation. But we're always to believe that such ones are so far beyond us that we can't possibly comprehend their powers and motives. I once had dinner with Mrs. Lewis, a grand old Boston lady full of charm and pluck. I asked her if she had ever witnessed Master perform any miracles (hoping, as I was, for a good story or two to share with others). Her immediate and spontaneous response was "No." Seeing that I was disappointed, she offered this consolation: she had heard that on one occasion Master "materialized" large amounts of carrot juice from a container that couldn't possibly(!) have held that much. Alright, it wasn't loaves and fishes, but what do you expect? After all, this took place in Southern California. I wonder what Catholic communion would be like if Jesus had tramped, not the hills of Galilee and Judea, but Hollywood and Malibu. Instead of wine and wafers, we'd get-- mushroom burgers and smoothies?! Hey, that actually might get me to Mass. Nah, instead of Latin, the service would probably be in Valley Girl, or some such dialect. Too arcane for me!
wholetruth Registered User (9/13/02 6:10 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Gitano: I would have to agree with you that the burden of proof lies with the so-called master. As has been stated before on this board, the vast majority of us never had personal contact with PY so we will never be able to know for sure about him. Some feel they have contact on a non-physical level, and I say more power to them! May they enjoy it and benefit from it. I'm not in that group. I've heard the good things (and I believe that some of those who have said the most glowing things can't be trusted), and I've heard the bad things, too. But I personally have experienced neither so if I am an honest and fair person I really can't make any judgement, can I? Without putting PY on a pedestal, I will still try to find some inspiration and guidance from his words. In spite of personal faults (if what Dhirananda and Nerode said was factual), Yogananda still seemed to be a great devotee. I can imagine that his charisma and personal magnetism were overpowering, but that in itself would not prove towering spirituality. But there I go, wanting to make some kind of judgement, and it's futile and pointless. "We must never criticize or find fault with anyone or see evil in any person. If we do, the love in our hearts will grow weak." --Swami Paramananda (one of PY's rival Hindu teachers in the 20's and 30's)
CrashLanded Registered User (12/11/03 11:14 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals RE: the gurus role and the quote above: "We must never criticize or find fault with anyone or see evil in any person. If we do, the love in our hearts will grow weak." Well, it seems to me that in a teacher/student relationship the burden of proof doesn't rest with the teacher nor with the student. The need to prove anything is, in itself, already a misleading trait, and a student who is afraid of coming to a conclusion is 'in' for a few rude awakenings! I agree with the quote above if is taken as an indication of the dangers of criticizing just for the sake of criticizing! But like anything else in life, we are constantly asked to form an opinion, or to make a choice. Let us remember that the goal is GOD, or cosmic consciousness, and that even the Guru is only a tool, a mean to that goal. Ultimately the need of ' proof 'rests with the individual, like for all his actions, and it could be different, at time even contradictory, according to the different lessons, spiritual/psychological development one is undergoing. Loyalty is a precious thing, but overall, loyalty to God is paramount. We have only a few means to determine if a teacher is for us: we have to use our reason, our heart and our intuition (however limited), our karma, and anything else we can use, to make our best bet! God doesn't expect more than that! And if a teacher, a path, a guru, an avatar, or even a god have taught us what we have to learn, let's move on. All is relative, there is no absolute! (Though I recognize that often, in several instances in my sadhana, biased/blind loyalty has helped me to focus, but at the end the only loyalty is to God). And most of all, let's us not underestimate the ability God has to teach us directly! Gurus, teachers, paths and sadhanas, I bow to you all, even to the fake ones, because they have taught me a lot! But at the end God, God, God ! P.S. See a similar discussion on this same "Core Issues" thread under "Guru System Revisited". Edited by: CrashLanded at: 12/11/03 11:23 pm
bsjones Registered User (12/12/03 1:55 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Thanks for the views presented in this thread!
ranger20 Registered User (1/15/04 12:11 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals "Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places, if you look at it right." Let me try that again. Once in a while I come across gems on the web, in the course of looking for something else. The Walrus last spring one example. Today, perhaps, another: swamij.com/swami-rama-guru.htm *Quote:* Don’t be disappointed with failures. When you start to make sincere efforts and start to practice, you will find light on the path. The light itself will guide you. The light of consciousness is within you. If you ignore that light, the guide outside you, the external teacher, will be of no use to you. He will make you a slave. Every individual has certain notions. He also lives with his notions. He creates a following and millions of people are swayed and misguided. Do you know what a guide means? The word guru has been vulgarized. Such a pious word is being misused. I call it guide. Do not depend much on guides. It is better for you to prepare yourself and remain awake. The scriptures say to wake up from the deep sleep of ignorance. Remain fully awake, remain conscious, and go on learning. Never close the door of learning. The day you close the door of learning you become ego, ego, ego. ........................... When you become aware of the light within, and that light reveals the Truth to you, there are no chances of being misguided. Teachers come and go. From your external teacher just pick up that which is useful for you and leave that which is not useful. No doubt you need a teacher, a guide. I will never tell you that you should not seek and you should not learn from other people, or that you should not study books. Teachers only inspire you and make you aware of that Self-existence that you have forgotten. Their role is to make you aware of the Reality. You do not need any new form. Christians should not become Hindu, Hindus should not become Buddhist, and Buddhists should not become anything else. They should remain as they are and not create any serious new problems for themselves. A known devil is better than an unknown devil. Remember this. Try to make your life happy wherever you are. -- Swami Rama
bsjones Registered User (1/15/04 1:55 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Ranger, that is some good stuff. I remember going to the Himalayan Institute (Swami Rama's place) looking for a guru, more or less. I remember a couple of things I heard there that were helpful: 1. The true guru is within. 2. The practice itself (of meditation) will guide you. It is good I think, also, to have a human guide and a sanga. That is close to the three jewels of buddhism - buddha, dharma, sanga. The guide teaches us the dharma.
chela2020 Registered User (1/15/04 9:08 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Ranger20, I just had to read the rest of your post after your e-mailed some of it to me. That was an excellent finding. The long one above it is also great.
etzchaim Registered User (1/16/04 7:15 am) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Just a warning about Swami Rama. Several of his female disciples sued him for sexual harassment in the 80's. Not sure of the outcome. I met him at the height of this and he was decidedly not a comfortable person to be with at that time. Very blocked - like he had built up a self-protecting fortress around himself. That said, I agree with his statements about Guru's. Hopefully he's worked out whatever issues he was having. Etz, not a big fan of the ideal of celebacy.
bsjones Registered User (1/16/04 11:37 am) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Ranger, could you provide a link to a thread that describes your current Christian practice, and your evolution to it? Thanks.
ranger20 Registered User (1/16/04 12:03 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals *Quote:* Ranger, could you provide a link to a thread that describes your current Christian practice, and your evolution to it? Any such evolution is still underway. My "practice" is still centered on SRF meditation techniques, with the addition of visiting a church where I feel at home for weekly eucharist. There are several web sites on topics I've found compelling for some time: On Centering Prayer and Lexcio Divina: www.centeringprayer.com/ On the Jesus Prayer: landru.i-link-2.net/shnyv...asing.html www.monasticdialog.com/bu...tarman.htm Rather than any astounding difference, this began for me with really recognizing and admitting this year, what has been growing in me for about five years - that for me, Christianity is home, in a very profound way. One irony is my suspicion that this is in some great part, Yogananda's doing, in response to a long period of discomfort in feeling spiritually homeless. I actually found the Walrus in the course of googling on "Yogananda, Easter," because last Spring's SRF mag article was a turnoff. *Quote:* "It amuses me when I hear my Western brothers say—'Do you believe in Christ?' I always say 'Jesus Christ.'" - Paramahansa Yogananda, East-West Magazine (online), March-April 1930, Vol 4-4, www.geocities.com/Athens/...4-4.html#k Edited by: ranger20 at: 1/16/04 12:19 pm
bsjones Registered User (1/16/04 1:28 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Thanks a bunch, Ranger!
chela2020 Registered User (1/17/04 5:25 am) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Ranger20, I thank you also for sharing. "The Way of a Pilgrim" was one of my favorite books. The web sites look very interesting. I am glad that you are following your heart.
SayItIsntSo Registered User (2/2/04 7:59 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals Jesus healed Simon's mother even though she wasn't a follower of his. Someone asked him to heal her, and he did it. She got right up and started serving him. (Luke 4:38-39). Think about that. Someone asked him. Done. There wasn't any requirements. Can't God's love be that simple? Why must it be picked apart and examined? Once we are healed, we have to move on in our lives, as Simon's mother did. She didn't moan and groan, or talk about it to anyone. She got up and got to work.
tangledsphere Registered User (9/18/05 5:52 pm) Reply	Re: Teachers (Gurus) on Pedestals From the lessons, it looks like PY was convinced you had to be in a guru-disciple relationship to get to God. Oh, what a mind trip, and a distraction from life. Wouldn't it have been wonderful, if in the lessons, there was no pressure to have a guru, or to follow a single path? Just do the techniques and see what you think. See if it works for you. The intensity increased with each of the lessons, and of course I wanted to experience Kriya. What a great motivator! Of course I wanted to know God, but I think the whole putting PY on a pedestal is not healthy. How much more inspiring that he was a human with all the frailties of humans, and still strove to know God? I have a feeling that is a more realistic picture.

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