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etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 5:45 am)
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Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
You know what Chela, I agree with a good portion of what you are saying, I just think you are being your own version of 'Fundamentalist', (I mean, the scriptures you believe in are the ones written by Realized Beings? I've heard such things before). You've been injured by SRF, and now you are swinging your pendulum, which used to be on the side of the Bliss Bunnies, to the other side, and are simply speaking out of the other side of your mouth.

Even the people who believe that Yogananda reached the highest state of Samadhi four years before he died don't believe he reached that state until four years before he died.

I personally find the Autobiography a big yawn and I'd rather read Tolkien and LeGuin, and concentrate on my own realization rather than other peoples, but I recognize that other people are inspired by it and I consider that good.

If I was in your shoes, I would really try to concentrate more on being happy with the new way I'd chosen, but then I'm a bit more mellow about things - I know what disillusionment is - I just don't hold onto it as much.

I wish you blessings and wisdom on your path.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/23/04 6:01 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 6:14 am)
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Clearing the table...
"The Jews even accused Jesus of using the devil to cast out spirits and probably felt this way due to their beliefs as coming from the scriptures."

According to the Rabbinic Jewish sources, Jesus was using the Holy Name of God to do the 'magic' he was doing, which is what most Jewish "magic" consists of, as well as Jewish meditation techniques and that was considered to be a misuse of the Name. A "Master" in Judaism is often referred to as "Ba'al Shem", Ba'al means master and Shem means name. The originator of the Chasidic movement was called the Ba'al Shem Tov. Tov means good. Also, Jesus committed no crimes that would be punishable by death according to Jewish law, so the Rabbinic sources state that the trial scenes in the NT are propaganda used by the Roman Christians to sway their flocks away from Jewish practices and beliefs. It turned out to be rather poisonous for the Jews, and for Christianity itself. Whatever it says that the "Jews" believed and said in the NT, there are other opinions out there.

"Satan" is considered an Angel with direct orders from God to attempt to persuade people to use their Free Will. He's a good guy, actually, and wants to lose the battle. Angels are 'agents' and 'messengers' of God and represent Aspects of God, like everything else. They are quite similar to the Devis and Devatas of the Hindu tradition. Judaism is not dualist, though there are expressions of 'Jewish Dualism', Christianity being one of them.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/23/04 6:22 am
Punk Yogi
Registered User
(1/23/04 6:17 am)
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Exhausting the Infinite
This is the entire quote:

Quote:
If there were no death, fifteen hundred million people would monopolize the Infinite. The planets and the universes would trademark God with the sale of finitude. The Infinite would be exhausted. Life and death would lose the taste of charming mystery. Everything would grow old and stale. The Infinite is ever-new—so by His Infinite Magic Wand of renewing death He keeps everything ever expressing, ever remodeling itself into a fitter vehicle for infinite expressions.

Hence this paradox—the dance of death—shattering worlds, pulverizing skulls, crumbling roses, destroying fifteen hundred million people every hundred years, killing billions of fishes, trillions of bacteria and powdering sextillion countless atoms. The life beautiful is evolving, training souls in the factory of mighty death. Death is the cosmic furnace in which the dross of all objects and living souls is purified. Death comes to a dutiful soul as its promotion to a higher state; it comes to a failure soul to give it another chance in a different environment.

Paramahansa Yogananda, in East West, Vol 3: 6 September - October 1928, 'The Mystery of Life and Death
www.geocities.com/Athens/...5/3-6.html




"The Infinite would be exhausted"

That's where the SRF texts become a breeding ground for trouble -- there are a lot of contradictory and confused images which defy logic, and one has to nearly ignore them to keep on believing.

On the other hand, Yogananda may have meant the passage to be regarded paradoxically and interpreted figuratively as to mean that a static, unchanging universe would be bland and played out.

For the sake of Yellowbeard's comment, I'm going to take off my subjective lenses and replace them with visors that make me see more literally....

Let me first mention that there does seem to be a consistent internal logic to the article. The basic premise is that matter and spirit are actually the same material....

Quote:
"The old theory of matter as essentially different from spirit is gone."

"The spirit contained in matter, and matter, are the same, just as hydrogen oxygen gas contained in a closed jar made out of a block of ice is of the same essential composition as the jar itself. The thing contained is made of the same material as the container. If it were otherwise, matter and spirit would have to be the result of two co-existing infinite forces, which is impossible. As the ocean becomes the waves, so does spirit become matter. Spirit and matter are the same as the ocean and the waves. The waves are distorted ocean—so is matter distorted, objectified spirit.



These words of Yogananda corroborate with the concept of Spirit as Substance in Sri Yukteswar's "Holy Science":


Quote:

"The Eternal Father, God, Swami Parambrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, and is all in all in the universe."

"These four - the Word, Time, Space, and the Atom - are therefore one and the same, and substantially nothing but mere ideas. This manifestation of the Word (becoming flesh, the external material) created this visible world. So the Word, Amen, Aum, being the manifestation of the Eternal Nature of the Almighty Father or His Own Self, is inseperable from and nothing but God Himself; as the burning power is inseparable from and nothing but the fire itself."

"Indestructible and Ever-Existing Real Substance"


Now let us ask: "Can the Infinite be monopolized? Can the Infinite be exhausted?"

If matter is indeed infinite due to matter being a manifestation of infinite Spirit (Substance), then Spirit cannot be exhausted by matter because both are, by definition, infinite.

All matter is Spirit
Spirit is Infinite
Therefore all matter is Infinite.

Spirit cannot be exhausted because it is infinite
Matter cannot be exhausted because it is infinite
Therefore, neither can exhaust or monopolize the other
They are one and the same.

Obviously, the answer to our question is "No"

So what shall we conclude about Yogananda's teachings from this? Is it fraught with dualistic, limited thinking? Or are the seeming errors of logic really intentional paradoxes?

I personally think Yogananda was speaking metaphorically, judging by the proliferation of metaphors in the texts. Anyone who is familiar with Yogananda's writings knows that he is prone to hyperbole and relies heavily on figurative language. Nevertheless, a lot of the constructs are confusing. And they must be surely exasperating to minds with a predominantly scientific bent.

Take for example the following Yogananda sentence:

"The planets and the universes would trademark God with the sale of finitude."

What exactly does it mean?
What is meant by a "sale of finitude"? Can "finitude" be sold?
Can God be trademarked? How?
And if so, how by the planets and the universes?
And can planets and universes market products?

Very confusing!

I'm not sure we can deduce from this that Yogananda has never experienced true realization. Although, it's possible. He certainly has matter and Spirit doing some very suspicious things. Don't forget that Yogananda was a very poor student. Perhaps he just skipped his English classes and never learned how to write a sound metaphor. Maybe he's telling the truth but not very effectively.

Edited by: Punk Yogi at: 1/23/04 6:21 am
Punk Yogi
Registered User
(1/23/04 6:34 am)
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Hi Etzy
What does "hatzlacha v'bracha" mean?

It sounds good...
Makes me want to say,


hatzlacha v'bracha
please pass the matzah!



Have you got around to reading LeGuin's "The Lathe of Heaven"?
Its a mindbender.

Punky

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 6:35 am)
Reply
Yoganandas' recipes
Thanks for that link, Punk.

Yogananda was definately not a Rational type.

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 6:37 am)
Reply
Hi Punky
'hatzlacha v'bracha' means 'good luck and blessings', and you should have a double portion.

I haven't gotten to the Lathe of Heaven yet, I'm in a non-fiction mode, reading Jungs "On the Nature of the Psyche". I'll be switching to fiction soon, if I know myself at all, and that's the next book I'll read.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/23/04 6:43 am
chela2020
Registered User
(1/23/04 7:25 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
Etzchaim,

I didn't say that the scriptures that I believed in were written by Self-Realized beings, I said that the Upanishads were written by those in higher states of consciousness. They are the basis for yoga philosophy along with The Yoga Sutras.

You also wrote: "If I was in your shoes, I would really try to concentrate more on being happy with the new way I'd chosen, but then I'm a bit more mellow about things - I know what disillusionment is - I just don't hold onto it as much".

This sounds to me like you own way of trying to stop my posting what I know to be the truth. I am happy with the new way I have chosen, and others have asked for me to post what I know and have been upset because I deleted, so now I am back and have no desire to delete. I think people need to not just look at SRF but to see that Yogananda's teachings are responsible for SRF's condition. As Bro. Anandamoy once said to me: "SRF and Yogananda are one and the same. If you reject SRF, you are rejecting the guru." I didn't believe it at the time, but I certainly understand it now. They are one and the same.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/23/04 7:31 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 7:39 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
"This sounds to me like you own way of trying to stop my posting what I know to be the truth. I am happy with the new way I have chosen, and others have asked for me to post what I know and have been upset because I deleted, so now I am back and have no desire to delete."

Honestly, Chela, I don't want to stop posting, I don't want you do delete your posts, I want you to stop hurting.

"As Bro. Anandamoy once said to me: "SRF and Yogananda are one and the same. If you reject SRF, you are rejecting the guru."

That's quite different from what my lineage says. Anandamoy is manipulating the teachings. SRF is an organization. It is not the Guru. I repeat: SRF is an organization. It is not the Guru.

I'm in Yoganandas lineage. I soundly reject SRF, AS DID SHELLEY, MY GURU'S GURU. Shelley never rejected Yogananda. I follow in his path.

Peace, and please do not delete your posts, they are important to this conversation.

Etz

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/23/04 7:41 am
redpurusha
Registered User
(1/23/04 7:43 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing
Borg, thank you for explaining some of the issues and allegations chela has brought up. I've read lots of books on Yogananda outside of SRF and I've never heard of Yogananda "spinding a salt shaker.... to just dazzle those around him with his powers."
Quote:
"Yogananda said that Gyanamata was liberated, and somwhere in the scriptures it says that one cannot become liberated until you've helped others reach God." -Borg108

If it's true (which it probably is) and Yogananda did roll around in a wheelchair, this is a legitimate reason for people of supposedly high realization falling into disease and illness.
Quote:
There are three stages of spiritual seeking. In the beginning, it is perfectly fine, and in fact desireable, to read different spiritual books and explore all the paths one feels drawn to in order to find the one that is best for him or herself. Then comes the phase where Daya Mata probably perceived you to be. There it is best to focus on one's chosen path and teachings, imbibing the vibrations of the teacher and not diluting one's efforts. At that time, other spiritual teachings may confuse and even distract one from one's goal. This is why SRF postulants read only Yogananda's writings. Later on, when one becomes more grounded and settled one one's path (and has greater discrimination), there is no problem in reading other spiritual writings. Daya Ma was probably telling you what she did at the time to help you get through stage 2 successfully.

This is by far the best and most sane explanation I've heard from anyone on the matter of reading and studying other paths/books.

It's observations like this that make these threads worth reading. Also, regarding these siddhis which Chela has focused on more than anything else, this is another clear observation.

Quote:
You have to use your discrimination to distinguish between siddhis displayed by seekers who have limited realization. Such powers can distract them from their goal. This is different than siddhis displayed by saints who have already reached the goal of life and/or are acting in harmony with the divine will. Was Christ wrong when he walked on water, changed water to wine, or fed multitudes with 5 fishes and loaves of bread? Maybe you're going to tell us now that none of these things really happened, according to some biblical scholar.

Granted, Chela's newspaper clipping about the engineer warning not to build I don't even have to see. You're probably telling the truth Chela regarding this. But why did Jesus chose Judas as a disciple when he knew he would be betrayed by him and then crucificed? He did this with supposedly the power to have God's legions of angels come done any minute.

chela2020
Registered User
(1/23/04 7:47 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
Eztchaim,

I am not hurting. I am totally over Yogananda. I am here at the request of others who wanted to know the truth. If you only knew how good it feels to be free of him and his teachings, to know the truth. When I used to post before I had too many doubts and guilt due to those doubts. Now my doubts are gone. I have even put a warning about this thread before I ever started.

I have no desire to delete my posts.

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 7:55 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
Chela, you sound really bitter to me, but, as you said, you are only here to present the 'truth'.

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:00 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing
I don't know if this in regard to the same building, but Shelley tells a story where Yogananda was trying to show disciples who were using Astrology too much that will and determination can push through the apparent effects of the 'stars'. He told them to choose the worst possible time, Astrologically, to start building something and that was when he started the building. Shelley was actually impressed that Yogananda was even able to get the building up, let alone have it last more than a day.

chela2020
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:06 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing
The reason for focusing your attention on any one religious teachings is to brainwash you. This is also how the communist did things, how most cults do things. Yoganadna, as even Yellowbeard said had a way of making you feel guilty for reading other material. It worked with me, it worked with him for a while, and I know of a lot of SRFers who feel guilty over reading anything other than Yogananda's work, and who put you down if you do, even if you read his original writings, which by the way SRF does not want you to have. The Jehovah's Witnesses used to be the same way in that they didn't want you to read their older books so would burn them.

It is very easy to buy into the story about the salt shaker as Yogananda presented it. I bought into a lot of things that he did, while inside I was beginning to have so many doubts. He contradicted himself so much as even Punk Yogi said.

Jesus walked walked out to his disciples during a storm when they were in a boat in order to save them from drowning, he changed the water into wine telling us that he was the "good wine," which could have just been a story to explain that. He fed the crowds because they were hungry. He healed people because of his compassion. Whatever he did, he did for compassion, which is how a true guru uses his powers. I don't see the compassion in playing with a salt shaker, in showing audiences that he can make light flash from his hands, or even in materializing objects and giving them away.

Borg wrote: "You have to use your discrimination to distinguish between siddhis displayed by seekers who have limited realization. Such powers can distract them from their goal". Yogananda had not reached his goal. These powers are a distraction to all who are on the path. His own guru told him to stop using the siddhis.

To me, it doesn't matter if Yogananda made a mistake about the temple that eventually fell into the ocean. Borg was just saying that Yogananda knew things, was a prophet. I was basically doing what Borg did: He tried to use the Bible to prove that what Yogananda was doing was okay, and I was using it to show that they Bible can also be used to prove that he was wrong.

Furthermore, most of the siddhis that Yogananda used, such as reading minds, healing, making objects move, knowing the future, doing past life readings, remembering others past lifes, and so on, are done by psychics all over the world. Does that make them Self-Realized?

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:20 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing
"most of the siddhis that Yogananda used, such as reading minds, healing, making objects move, knowing the future, doing past life readings, remembering others past lifes, and so on, are done by psychics all over the world. Does that make them Self-Realized?"

No, it doesn't make them self-realized, but that's not the point I've been trying to make. Using siddhis to prove that one is a real or fake Guru is obsurd, in my opinion.

Also, speaking in paradox form is rather common in mysticism, and Yogananda never made any pretensions about his intellect. He even wrote that one of his worst problems was a non-methodical approach, which was just quoted earlier. I have never argued that Yogananda was fully self-realized, and never will. That you believe that Guru's in order to be not 'fake' have to be self-realized, is one of the major differences between my view and yours.

Jesus could have calmed those waters down on the shore! He didn't have to walk on the water to do so! He was supposedly God! Personally, I'm having none of that and finding it mildly humorous that I'm having a debate over Jesus with someone who claims to also not believe in the NT, but, hey, there are stranger things in life! Debate is a bit of habit with me.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/23/04 8:22 am
chela2020
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:27 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing
Eztchaim,

I was mainly posting in regards to what Borg said. I know that you don't believe that the siddhis mean you are Self-realized.

Not all true gurus are fake, which doesn't make sense. Not all gurus are fake, makes since. I never said they were. Most gurus are not totally Self-realized and don't have to be in order to transmit the power of a Self-realized guru in their lineage.

I understand your feelings about debating with someone who also doesn't think much of the Bible, but again, I am only answering Borg, who evidently believes in Christ and is using it to prove that it is okay to use the siddhis that Yogananda used.

Whenever I don't put a name on my post, it is not because I am answering the person above me, but because I am answering issues in other posts. Sorry if you misunderstood me.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:48 am
chela2020
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:30 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
Eztchaim: "Chela, you sound really bitter to me, but, as you said, you are only here to present the 'truth'".

You can read anything you want into my post, but whether I am or not, what I am writing I know to be facts.

Punk Yogi
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:46 am)
Reply
Replies to Yellowbeard
Quote:
I feel ultimately however much we may differ and argue over some issues, we should do so like opposing lawyers that eat lunch together in an amicable fashion afterwards.


Well put. The fun is in the debate. Recently, I've been asking myself why I'm still on the Walrus. I feel I've arrived at closure about SRF, and I'm rather satisfied with the direction I'm taking spiritually. But it's a blast meeting all of you. I've also learned a lot about myself and others by the interaction. So why not. Let's keep it rolling.

And Yellowbeard, this is a lot like being attorneys and having at it in court. You've been a knarly challenge, but I love a good sweat. Hope you feel the same. So what're you having for lunch? I heard the mint salad is pretty darn good ;)


Quote:
YellowBeard raises an eyebrow. Mmmm. Guru Busters


:smokin Heh heh!


Quote:
How many people actually question Yogananda in comparison to the amount of blind praise and worship?


.000000000000005%

Though it has dribbled into the Walrus dialogue in previous years, much credit goes to you for turning the pressure up.

As I mentioned before, I was one of the original to question Yogananda, but not as directly as you have. People weren't ready for it then. They could scarcely sustain interest in talking about the contradictions in the lessons, probably because it would be too labor intensive and it was much more convenient to lisp, "The bad ladies! The bad ladies!" and be done with it.

Remember that cute little story I made up about the sinking ship? The crew go searching for breeches in the hull in every part of the ship except the Captain's quarters, which is off limits. The Captain's quarters is flooding too. Yellowbeard is mumbling at the door, but everybody thinks he's a lunatic. The crew returns to the galley to eat donuts, ignoring the "lunatic" as the ship continues to sink.

Never criticize the guru.

Here's why: Suppose a ship is sinking from a perforated hull. According to the rules, the mechanics may enter any room except the captain's unless they have his permission. A gaping hole is pumping water furiously into the captain's quarters. The captain is dead, but the crew will not enter the room and inspect the problem until the captain gives permission. And you're the squeeky pissant who's jumping up and down saying, "Hey! Let's go in!"

So everybody's getting upset. They turn to you and say, "Hey you there jumping up and down like a Chihuahua. You elf. Why are you so s-elf-ish? Shut up already!" And they gang together and jump on top of you and punch you till you start talking about holes in donuts instead of holes in ships.

And that reminds everybody that there are some donuts in the galley. So they all leave you seeing stars as you lie slumped at the foot of the captain's door while they search the larder for the goodies.

Meanwhile the bow of the ship tilts at a 45 degree angle. But somebody in the crew is wise enough to say that "we must analyze the reason for this sudden change in pitch of the ship."

Ya! and somewhere down by the Captain's quarters can be heard the dumb mumblings of the pissant with a wild imagination.

"It must be Davey Jones acting up" says one.

"It must" says another.



On to the subject of Kriya...

Quote:
Since Yogananda shaped the practice according to his tastes (as most gurus do), when we do it, we're saying that we believe he had some kind of superhuman vision into the subtle workings of the soul.


Maybe, but let's take an entirely different situation. Say a peasant woman, with no education, gets pregnant and has a beautiful child. Does that mean that the mother has a complete understanding of genetics?

Kriya worked from day #1 for me. I can't speak for anyone else. I practice it and I see the light and I taste the inner nectar. Insights appear. I don't ever want to stop practicing it. I never ever had an issue with Kriya. I experienced a sea change once I got rid of SRF and all that monastic-centric, black & white thinking. So I'm not entirely clear why I should abandon something that is working so amazingly well.

Quote:
Kriya is associated with a lot of corrupt groups. A notable example is the "Solar Logos" Kriya cult that was started by a Yogananda direct disciple. These people are actually waiting for UFOs to come pick them up and deliver them to Salvation.


This is somewhat of a straw man. What I'm hearing you say is that most versions of Kriya have been tainted and twisted by various corrupt groups. Assuming my version is a twisted and tainted version, what should I do about the fantastic results I am getting? Should I endeavor to cultivate a mistrust of my perceptions by pandering to your conjecture?


Quote:
Kriya may actually delude the mind as some meditations do. I say this as respectfully as possible, Punk has some 'colorful' views on life.


Yes, to a binary logic circuit Punk's multidimensionality must look quite colorful.

Quote:
We of course have different views on this ...


And to this Shakespeare says,

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.


Court Adjourned
PY

chela2020
Registered User
(1/23/04 8:58 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
Yellowbeard wrote: "True spiritual teachings are designed to Liberate",

How true. True teachings should liberate one, not bind one to an organization or any one teaching.

"Diving deeply into Yogananda intoxication produces psychiatric casualties, which has been spoken on before, when we combine meditation with false prophets or misguided teachings". This is also true YB. I run into people often who have practiced Kriya and became psychiatric casualities. I also run into those who are psychiatric casualites from Siddhi Yoga due to their using the siddhis and/or having shaktipad done on them. TM is another example, which you have covered.

YOu also quoted me and then added to it: "Chela2020: "... after coming to SRF, it seemed that you should only study what Yogananda wrote, which created guilt whenever I didn't."

Yes, this is in the Lessons. I definitely got this feeling as well. This isn't flat out stated, but it's strongly implied. No good con-artist flat out says things, they manipulate you. This is common cult thinking to cut people off from information from the outside world which may cause someone to question the teachings".

This has been mentioned often on this board, and I find it interesting how Borg, who was against SRF, now, in order to stand up for Yogananda is using SRF as his defense, even using this line about reading other religious books. As I have posted just earlier, this is cult thinking and it does cut one off from the world. The idea is to indoctrinate the person in your own teachings, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses did, and then after you are indoctrinated, you won't be able to accept other teachings as truth unless they are exactly the same as your's. Yogananda did this very well. The guilt from reading other books was planted in our minds in a sneaky psychological way, which was once explained to me. And then whenever you read other books, you don't believe that they are the truth if they didn't say the exact same thing as Yogananda's. Now, I understand that you can just believe what you want, and that is in itself liberating. I don't have to read books from just one certain organization, and when I do, I don't have to accept what I read. Because it just doesn't matter.

In fact, it took me a long time to see what was wrong in the teachings, even after I left. I didn't even know what real Hinduism was about because I was only introduced to what Yogananda taught. I don't limit my reading to just my new path anymore; I read everything that I want.

Those who are in SRF and are upset over certain changes in Yogananda's writings, really don't know the half of what is wrong there. It isn't just how the monastics are treated, or the changes in the writings, it is the teachings in themselves and how they are being presented to the public in a way that ensnares you. At their worse, they keep you wanting the siddhis and obtaining siddhis can cause psychological damage. I think a lot of people will not see this until they have stepped away from it for a few years and have studied other teachings. Even here on this board, the opposition is for siddhis and they justify the silliness of some of the siddhis he used as if it were proof that he was a great yogi.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/23/04 9:07 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/23/04 9:57 am)
Reply
Re: Stepping Up to the Plate
From my experience, all groups use ways, either subtle or gross, to sway people to their belief systems, whether it's a political party, a religious group, a fraternity or sorority, an interest group, like Greenpeace, etc., etc..

There are extreme forms of this,

This group is a good example:

www.religionnewsblog.com/...death.html

and there are less and less extreme forms as one goes down the spectrum.

I keep in mind that today people 'access' Yogananda through the lessons and his writings and other people who used to know him or those who were taught by those who used to know him.

A Guru interacts with his or her disciples in several different ways, one of those ways involves being able to communicate with the disciple on a one on one basis. One of the major criticisms I have of the way Yogananda set things up is that he tried to make writings replace the Guru. I think this was wrong. On the other hand, those people who had direct access to him were able to learn from him on an individual basis, and I honestly do think he taught different individuals differently. I don't think he should have ever placed so much reliance on his organization, or on written material and should have realized that his organization had become too large to function well. I consider these problems to be real problems.

OK, so here are two statements:

"... after coming to SRF, it seemed that you should only study what Yogananda wrote, which created guilt whenever I didn't."

Yes, this is in the Lessons. I definitely got this feeling as well. This isn't flat out stated, but it's strongly implied."

It's the "this isn't flat out stated, but it's strongly implied" that I want to look at.

If there is a strong culture that has developed in SRF that states that Yogananda was the only true Guru (someone has even told me that I am not spiritually advanced enough to have an Astral Guru!) and that all other paths are not as good as SRF, then this is going to sink in. I do not question that Yogananda may have been persuasive to people, but I do not think he is responsible for the cult that developed around him, any more than Jesus is responsible for the Inquisition (or the Jew-hatred propoganda in the NT, for that matter).

I am in no way stating that Yogananda did not make mistakes that led up to SRF becoming what it is today, but I do not think that he is responsible for it becoming a cult - and SRF is an extremely mild cult by most standards where a respect for other peoples religious beliefs is being observed. This does not mean that people are not being hurt.

The cult of SRF seems to be a collusion of Yogananda's issues, key people with interests in the organization and a good amount of people who really, truly want to believe they are on the best path and a lot of very bad leadership of a ship that is too big for it's spiritual breaches.

Almost all of Yogananda's key teachings have come down to me, filtered through Shelley and Kriyananda, and they did not produce a cult (except by YB's standards |I ), the problem appears to be more to do with Yogananda's ability to combine his 'kingdom' with the Kriya teachings, and some difficulties with articulating some very profound truths that are difficult to communicate under the best of conditions.

I see no evidence that Yogananda set out to delude people purposely, that he 'faked' anything, or that he was doing what he was doing to control people for the sake of his own ego. I see a good amount of evidence that tells me that there are people in power who are misrepresenting the teachings, a good amount of laizez-faire corruption combined with drastic attempts to excert control, and the normal noises of a corporation gone hay-wire mixed with spiritual beliefs - a very harmful situation. I also see that some independent souls who left the org. have been able to make what seems to be healthy spaces. Ananda's Kriyanda had problems due to celebacy issues (I'm against celebacy) but Ananda seems vastly healthier than SRF, despite the constant need to defend itself against SRF, Shelley and G. Kriyananda have created a healthy space, and Black and Raymer created a healthy space in Northern Michigan.

SerenityNow7
Registered User
(1/23/04 9:59 am)
Reply
replies to many
Well...I may be largely talking to myself, but I shall continue.

My point about the siddhis was that historically around the time that the ancient texts were written there is an obvious motivation for discouraging the use and display of siddhis. This could have embedded itself strongly in the spiritual culture for thousands of years. I'd like to hear some first-hand current data of someone who used siddhis and it harmed them.

Yellowbeard, please do not assume I am a fool....what I would advocate is controlled scientific conditions to test whether a person actually had the powers they claimed to have. Certainly there are many many fakers out there with no doubt the expertise of David Copperfield! Let's see him make the Statue of Liberty disappear while locked him in a room, naked, without a cell phone, with no way to have set it up beforehand.

I also am not saying that just because a person has siddhis that they are realized or a "true" guru. Just that they have siddhis and as such must have some degree of of skill or advancement others do not. Whether they use them wisely and what their motives are is certainly far from defined.

YB, in my experience all meditation practices that focus the mind do not produce the same results. If you meditate with the mantra "hum" (like hoooom) for five minutes and then try "grik" for five minutes I bet you will feel the two produce something different!!! As for Mickey Mouse....I'm not sure I could do it without cracking up laughing. But that's just mantras....I've done meditations with visualization of Hebrew letters, breath, sound, light, and while each certainly shifts the mind's state the feeling and results afterward have been different (for me at least).

Chela, just for arguments sake consider...Jesus displayed powers that did lead people to believe which did lead people to seek God. How can you truly say that that was not Yogananda's motivation as well? Here he is coming to the West a culture which probably needs gimmicks and flashy things to even pay attention. His flashing light hands trick might have gotten someone to look deeper into spiritual life and maybe look for God who wouldn't otherwise.

This is an odd discussion for me because I'm not that attached to these views. Strange to find myself arguing on the pro-Yogananda side. If all of you were having a bliss-bunny discussion, I'd probably be pointing out all the negatives! I'm keeping an open mind about it. He may have been a saint, sinner, or a combination of both. I take what's useful to me that he taught and disregard the rest. I have sadly decided that SRF as a spiritual community just can't work for me as they have "deified the teacher" (as ranger said) and that does not sit well with me.

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