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Borg108 Registered User (1/23/04 10:03 am) Reply	Re: Reply to chela2020 chela2020, I have never been for or against SRF as such. I am opposed to hypocrisy and deceit wherever I see it, whether in SRF, Ammachi, on this board, or elsewhere. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and some of those in SRF do or say the right things from time to time. To think otherwise is again a black or white, fundamentalist, all or nothing mindset. I believe Daya Ma was trying to help you and probably gave you good advice at the time she told you what she did. I have also known her to give non-SRF spiritual books to others. It all depends on the situation and the time. To their credit, I've found that SRF and Yogananda's teachings warn against seeking extraordinary spiritual experiences or boasting about them when they do occur. I don't know anyone in SRF who came there wanting siddhis or who is "for siddhis". It is said by SRF that one of the reasons Rajasi advanced as quickly as he did was because he had siddhis but never used them. In Yogananda's teachings there is the story about the man who did spiritual practice for years so he could levitate and walk across the river. When he boasted of this ability to a wise man, the teacher chided him saying that he wasted 20 years of his life learning to do something that he could accomplish by paying half a rupee to a boatman. Please think more about what brought about your turning on Yogananda and his teachings. From your posts as nagchampa, you said it was hearing (you wouldn't say from whom) negative information that you believed to be true. Why not think things through for yourself? Isn't it a sign of rigid, narrow minded fundamentalism to blindly accept some outside authority as truth and proclaim everything else as being wrong? Isn't that what you're doing now by lashing out at Yogananda and teachings, even to the extent of attributing siddhi seeking to them, when just the opposite is true? Do you really think Christ was a fraud because he walked on water and displayed other siddhis to instill faith in his followers? What about Krishna and all the other saints who displayed siddhis for the "glory of God", i.e., to demonstrate that God realization takes one beyond ordinary the laws and limitations of ordinary creation? Personally, I would rather trust the judgements of saints or avatars, i.e., those who know and love God, rather than of pedantic scholars (or undisclosed sources) who lack realization and may not see the bigger picture. Edited by: Borg108 at: 1/23/04 5:58 pm
chela2020 Registered User (1/23/04 1:24 pm) Reply	Re: Reply to chela2020 Borg, Everything I felt about Yogananda on an intuitive level were the things that have been proved to me to be right about him. I trust the sources of my information also. I know that they would not lie to me about something as important as this, but what is more, they would not lie about anything. I know from them that he abused the siddhis in much the same way as he did when he was a child when he made his friend's hand stick on the wall, when his dad came in an repremended him. To me, he didn't change one iota. But this time he wasn't using hypnosis but one of his siddis, which this person stopped him from doing, and then asked him to leave. This has caused me to be totally infuriated with Yogananda, not to mention other things that he has done. Siddhis should only be used to help a devotee. You don't have to resort to parlor tricks to make someone believe in you. Sister Gyanamata was already a believer, so the salt shaker trick was not to help her believe in him. He was just playing around. Wasn't his healings enough to make people believe in him? But what is more important, shouldn't you just want people coming to you to find God? If you spend time displaying siddhis to attract followers, you end up with people who are there to learn the siddhis or want to use you by getting you to heal them, which happened to him often. In large auditoriums, when he used to travel around the U.S., he used siddhis to attract followers. If you find this okay, then it is okay with me, but what he has done is personally not okay with me. I no longer have any respect for him. And you can't shove under the rug that he plagiarized Swami Dhirananda's writings by taking his name off his book, nor was having Durga Ma ask Lynn for money all the time right for him to do. So basically, I have thought for myself, but I doubted what I was feeling in regards to what I was reading and hearing. I was not sure if my own intuition was correct in these matters. Now, I know it was. I also ran my questions (doubts) by many gurus in different organizations, not giving his name. I already answered the questions about Christ in an above posting. Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:55 am
ugizralrite Registered User (1/23/04 2:38 pm) Reply	Borg108 rattles my cage. Borg108 wrote: To their credit, I've found that SRF and Yogananda's teachings warn against seeking or boasting about spiritual experiences. I don't know anyone in SRF who is there wanting siddhis or who is "for siddhis". Personally, I would rather trust the judgments of avatars... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My take on it was that we were not to discuss our inner experiences, period, and so I stayed clammed up for decades unless it involved being a parrot for SRF. I remember being at Encinitas on retreat during Easter, and one of the retreatants asked to share something she had experienced. She was told to hush and enjoy the vibration of the hermitage room we were standing in. At the time I thought that it was good that she had been discouraged from speaking, because after all, sharing our experiences would mean they would be taken away from us!! And as you must realize, now I too am speaking out of the other side of my mouth. I no longer buy into not comparing notes on spiritual experience. I like to read about, for example, Punk's experiences with kriya. Why did Yogananda want to be the only authority on these matters by discouraging discourse on the spiritual outcome of his teachings? Avatars: Why four in a row? (Babaji, Lahiri, Yukteswar, Yogananda). The implication to me was that these guys were perfected beings, God in flesh, not that I really bought it or understood it. I just played along to see where it would go, and now we know that the benefits of such titles are probably outweighed by the corruption that is caused by such high self-opinions. "My guru is an Avatar" type thinking is really a form of spiritual materialism. Like siddhis, it isn't a particularly useful concept in the long run. And don't get me going on "My one really bad day." by Jesus of Nazareth, who got more mileage out of that than any long term cancer patient's suffering ever did.
chela2020 Registered User (1/23/04 3:39 pm) Reply	Re: Borg108 rattles my cage. Ugizralrite, I loved your very sincere post. I, too, would rather trust the judgments of avatars, and I don't believe that any of the line of gurus are avatars. Where I am now, we don't talk about our religious experiences except with our guru, which is fine for me, because I get good explainations that way. But like you, I would like to know other's experiences. Siddhi Yoga students do talk to each other, not that I am recommending them, but I liked Muktananda's books because they explained these things. There is much else that I don't care for in the teachings, but it is interesting to see what other's experience. Your "one really bad day" sounded interesting. Right now I am reading a book, or trying to, called "The Day Jesus Became God," how the church fathers fought until they decided that he was God, and it is written by a Jewish professor. I love it. LOL. About time.
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/23/04 5:31 pm) Reply	Borg108 our hypocrisy-free Holy One *Quote:* I have never been for or against SRF as such. I am opposed to hypocrisy and deceit wherever I see it, whether in SRF, Ammachi, on this board, or elsewhere. hmmmmmmmmmmm ~~~~~~ [other people in here are discussing personal experiences I applaud] second comment: not discussing personal experiences: Met'inks life is our personal experiences hmmmmmmmmmmm Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/23/04 5:32 pm
chela2020 Registered User (1/23/04 6:36 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate P.S. to All: Only an act from God would cause me to delete what I have written. What you fail to understand is, when I sided with Borg many months ago, I was partly trying to even convince myself that Yogananda was a true guru, and so by arguing along with you with others who put him down, I believe I was trying to convince myself that he was an okay guru. There are people who have written to me with questions about Yogananda, knowing that I deleted messages. They wanted to know the truth. I can only offer them what I believe to be the truth, and if that isn't enough, then I can do no more. It is very painful, or at least it was for me, to not know the truth. Here I was out of SRF, and I didn't even know the truth about them. I questioned myself for two years as to whether I should have left them or not. Then when I learned things about Yogananda, I was partly in denial, and partly very upset over it all. And not having the truth, I could not move on. I would have rather to have learned that he was a true guru, and then I could have still left him but without the hurt of a betrayal. Others, I feel, are in that same predictament. They want to know. I can't deny them what it took me years to learn. I can only warn those who come to this thread to not read it if they don't want to hear anything negative about their guru, and that I have done. Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:58 am
kolorado22 Registered User (1/23/04 10:22 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate chela2020: I hear your suffering and feel for you when you talk about the loss of your guru. You may want to consider that Master was sent here to trick you into seeking God and that you can only find him through your inner vision anyway. Perhaps Yoganada accomplished his mission with you. kolorado
YellowBeard420 Slow Down (1/24/04 3:26 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate > Chuckle Chela: "sometimes you are very civil and engaging--but all too often you appear to be incapable of hearing or considering the possible truth in what others have to say, and accepting that others' experience may have been different from your own." I'm working on this ... > Etzchaim to Chela2020: "Honestly, Chela, I don't want to stop posting, I don't want you do delete your posts, I want you to stop hurting." I don't mean to poke my noise here, but this is called laying a guilt trip. It's like people in a cult telling someone that's been molested by the guru that they should keep quite otherwise they'll jeopardize the guru's mission. This is total manipulation as well, you know she's concerned about possibly hurting others by speaking out on these things, so you're playing that card. If anyone is being hurt by this type of discussion, there's many many other threads with more issues to discuss than they could know what to do with on the board here. > Punk Yogi wrote: "You've been a knarly challenge, but I love a good sweat. Hope you feel the same." Aye. > Punk Yogi: "... what should I do about the fantastic results I am getting [from Kriya]? Should I endeavor to cultivate a mistrust of my perceptions by pandering to your conjecture? Definitely not. I'm suggesting an experiment that you may want to play with personally some time: look through your spiritual books that you respect, or surf around on the Net for a meditation technique that sounds like something that fits your tastes. Replace your Kriya practice with this for a few days, maybe weeks if you wanna get serious about it, and see what happens. Basically do the same that you do with Kriya. If you use prayers and other devotional approaches in conjunction with your Kriya, use these as well. Try to replicate your mental attitude towards Kriya with this other technique (easier said than done though of course). You might think, why mess with this when it's working just fine? If I'm eating a great meal, why should I bother putting my fork down and taking the trouble to whip up a whole other meal? We're in a win-win situation with whatever the outcome of this experiment. You may find that Kriya still reigns supreme. This will strengthen your faith in Kriya and deepen your meditations. Or if you find other techniques can produce the same effects, this will simply put more tools in your tool box -- ones that you may never choose to use. But on an energetic level, so to speak, you will no longer subtly give energy to another. You will see that you exclusively are in control of your spiritual life. We may have separated ourselves from SRF dogma, but subconscious feelings still exist. There's a hidden effect of Kriya that says that it's a type of Holy Grail that's be given to us by Godmen. The effect of this is that we fall to our knees in appreciation for this blessing. Even if this is just happening very silently on a subconscious level, this effect creates dualism in the mind. This is not something I've read in a book. The deepest states I've personally reached have been when the subconscious becomes quiet as well -- and you'll know it when it does, it's like having a knot untied that you never knew you had. The release is intense and returning to normal consciousness is actually painful, at least that's how it played out for me. I appreciate your exploration into Yoganada's teachings. Very thorough! I'll try to dig up the stuff that I've found particularly troublesome. That'll be most beneficial to work with methinks.
chela2020 Slow Down (1/24/04 3:47 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate kolorado, Thank you for caring, but I am not suffering from what I learned abuot Yogananda anymore. I am infuriated by what he has done, but I have more concern for those who are here on this board who want to know the truth. It took me a while to be able to post these things to others on the board because I felt, as SRF had taught, that we should never put down his organization or the guru. That guilt has left me, and even though people come on here using guilt to try to stop me from posting, it no longer works. I realize that I once did the same to others who posted negative things about Yogananda. We do it in fear of hearing the truth. We try everything within our power to stop the person, just as Borg is trying to do with me. Perhaps, we do it even to protect Yogananda's devotees, but they don't have to read this thread, just as YB has said over and over. Serenity Now: You asked a question as to whether what was written in the Hindu scriptures is still relevent now. The Upanishads is still relevent today. I don't have your post in front of me, so I don't have your direct question. Certain truths never change, and those don't, neither does the Gita. I can's speak for the remaining scriptures. You can find truth in all religions. The Upanishads basically talk about Reality.
chela2020 Slow Down (1/24/04 4:29 am) Reply	Re: replies to many SerenityNow wrote: "the siddhis was that historically around the time that the ancient texts were written there is an obvious motivation for discouraging the use and display of siddhis. This could have embedded itself strongly in the spiritual culture for thousands of years". Those who use the siddhis unwisely just never progress towards God. The scriptures are full of examples. In the Ramayana they are called "demons" because they use those powers unwisely, that is, not to help their fellow man. I posted much earlier many scriptures on the misuse of siddhis. When I was going for psychic readings and to associate with other psychics at a Heartsong (a psychic institute) in Berkeley, and learned to give readings from a friend who graduated from there, I began to notice how all of my friends and acquaintences from there had emotional problems. One person, at that time, killed herself. Very few were made stronger by using those siddhis. I began to feel empowered by the use of these siddhis because I could read minds, and so no one could pull the wool over my eyes. This is one of the reasons why they are discouraged, because they are an ego trip. But after a year, I began to feel that it was wrong to read the mind's of others. During that time I also began going to a Hindu meditation group, I don't recall which one, and I talked to someone at the front desk about psychic readings, and he told me that the scriptures were against it. I left, thinking he was wrong, but what I took with me was the fact that the people there were peaceful and loving, and not chaotic like those who were psychics. My friend who taught me to read minds, was one of the few who changed for the better, and when she wanted to find a boyfriend she said, "I don't want anyone who is into psychic readings; I want someone who is normal." We both stopped giving readings. She is now practicing a form of meditation from Japan. Before that, we had taken Kriya together at Mother Center, and being the psychic that she is, she said, "There is no spirituality here." Then she began practicing Kriya, and after a while she said that it was dangerous, that allowing the kundalini to rise in that way is harmful." Then she added, "We both must have strong minds to not have had it harm us," but she was becoming irritable from the practice and stopped. She told me that it was making me irritable, but I didn't want to accept that, even though I knew that she was a great psychic reader. (I was brainwashed and didn't know it.) A year later, I quit doing Kriya, I went back to Hong Sau for a while, and my mind grew calmer. That is when I realzed the difference. It is hard to know when you are in the midst of it all. Then I had a friend in SRF who is a psychologist, and she said that there were a lot of mentally ill people in SRF. At the time I thought, "All psychologists think that everyone is ill." Later on, I learned that some of those who practiced kriya had to quit kriya because it was disturbing their minds. So that is the main problem in using siddhis, but also people who are meditating and find that they are acquiring the siddhis have a hard time ignoring them. They are a great temptation on the path, and Yogananda fell to that temptation. With the siddhis you can wow people, you can gain a following, etc. If you don't ignore them, you will spend your time acquiring them, and you will not reach God. They impede your progress in that direction. So most religions teach that you should find God first, then if you use the siddhis, you should do so quietly and only out of compassion to help others, and by this I mean to help them on their spiritual path to God. Sometimes this may mean healing someone from a physical disease or saving them in some way. "Chela, just for arguments sake consider...Jesus displayed powers that did lead people to believe which did lead people to seek God. How can you truly say that that was not Yogananda's motivation as well? Here he is coming to the West a culture which probably needs gimmicks and flashy things to even pay attention. His flashing light hands trick might have gotten someone to look deeper into spiritual life and maybe look for God who wouldn't otherwise". Jesus used his powers only out of compassion to help others. But this is in another post in this thread. Another Hindu religion came here much earlier than Yogananda, and the gurus of that organization never used siddhis to gain a following. You don't have to resort to parlor tricks to gain devotees. It isn't morally right. The idea is to not gather a large following but instead to find sincere devotees who just want to find God, and by doing so, you merely tell people that you can experience God through meditation. Nothing more is needed. When I first read Ramana's book, he stated that meditation will bring you the experience of God; so I began reading other meditation books and went back to meditating, using my TM meditation technique. Then I found "The Autobiography of a Yogi" and thought you could have both God and the siddhis and so joined. But by that time, I already knew inside that psychic readings were wrong, and so I didn't practice the lesson on how to read minds, which I didn't need to learn anyway, because I knew how. Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 8:05 am
kolorado22 Registered User (1/24/04 7:22 am) Reply	Re: replies to many chela2020: We share similar motivations for posting here. You want to warn PY's followers that their guru may be morally false, and to trust their heart, I want to warn them that their intellect (ego) in it's entirety is false and only their heart is true. This board piques the interest of the intellect and it wants to rush out and validate the experience of being a devotee to Master or alternatively it wants to rush out and invalidate that experience. Both paths are fun but a waste of time. I am afraid that your arguments against the use of siddhis make no sense to the intellect, are illogical, and do not appeal to the heart either. That is because an experienced mystic knows that psychic powers, miracles, and siddhis are all tricks anyway. You know this, that is a valuable lesson. What your intellect does not seem to appreciate is that everyday life on the sensory plane is substantially identical in scope to the tricks or powers or siddhis that PY used. That is, your everyday sense impressions, whether they be sight, sound, touch, pain, pleasure, are all meaningless noise to your higher body or soul. The same can be said for hope and fear. They come to you from a narrow consciousness that your mind dwells in because it has been tricked into taking a body here. Consider that hooking up a computer and talking to a group of people scattered all over the face of the globe is a miracle far beyond levitating in your bedroom or creating an amulet out of nothing. Same thing with heart bypass surgery or spaceflight. The heart surgeon performs miracles every day, that does not make her an abuser of siddhis, unless of course she is an ego centered @#%$ anyway. If her heart is pure she can go on doing miracles indefinitely, it will not add to her karma, it will only free her. My point is that life in the sense plane is completely absurd, just like the siddhis are. If PY used siddhis to attract worthy followers, it makes no difference. It is what was in his heart when he used those powers that is important and what was in his heart when he took on the karma of his followers. If you followed your heart out of PY's ashram and into another guru or lover or nature or Yellowbeard's drugs or whatever you will find peace. That is what your experience with psychic powers and PY should be telling you. Go where you feel your heart is pulling you and tell your mind to come with. If it complains, laugh at it and trick it into shutting up. But never listen to your intellect, it will lead you away from God into living hell. I know, I dwelt in that dark realm for my childhood, escaped into the light when I found Prana, and then slowly sank back into hell and greed when I had enough powers and capabilities to build a family and "normal" life. Almost anyone who has a boon for the first time abuses it. Your experience with psychic powers is quite normal. Eventually you wake up and realize that the EGO or intellect is false because it leads you away from your heart which can be felt only in stillness. The intellect cannot remain still on its own, it has to be turned off by pulling the plug. If meditation or kriya causes mental illness by disturbing the mind, then it is performing it's intended function. Hopefully those that are too weak to handle a Harley Davidson fall off right away, not when they are going 100 MPH in the rain. kolorado
nagchampa2 Registered User (1/24/04 7:55 am) Reply	Re: replies to many kolorado, Go back and read the posts under chela2020 Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 2/2/04 8:12 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/24/04 8:56 am) Reply	Re: replies to many That's hilarious! Nagchampa and Chela2020 are the same person! You admitted this earlier on the Walrus Chela2020/Nagchampa. I don't know if you deleted this post, and I really don't want to bother myself to look for it! I believe it was in a reply to SayItIsn'tSo. 'Truth' is very relative and Ultimate Truth may indeed be something none of us quite have access to, right now, but God willing we'll all get there some day, even if it isn't really a 'getting anywhere of anything'. Integrity, my child, integrity!
etzchaim Registered User (1/24/04 9:13 am) Reply	Just in case the deleting occurs again Nagchampa says: "kolorado, from reading chela's posts, it is more than the siddhis. it is his claiming Swami Dhirananda's writings as his own, not paying what the court asked him to pay when Swami Dhirananda won the case. it is how he used his siddhis on another person to try to prove that he was powerful or whatever the reason. it is also the fact that he didn't know the sadhi mantra that all swamis know, and was then asked to drop the title of "swami", which he did, just to take up another, "paramahansa." It just all smacks of deceit, not just to his followers but to his business partners as well, and so they left him. but they also left him because they believed without a doubt that he was having affairs." Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/24/04 9:14 am
nagchampa2 Registered User (1/24/04 9:22 am) Reply	Re: replies to many Etzchaim, I admitted who I was on another post because I have intregrity. They put Chela2020 on "slowdown". That may be automatic since I posted too often, if it isn't, I will soon know, won't I? It is hilarious. I was laughing myself over how I got around it this a.m. But not for long, I am sure. But the reason why I changed to nagchampa2 long ago was because SRF knows my real name under chela2020. Since then I have found that I should not fear them. kolorado, Do you think that we should just allow those on this board who are suffering from what they have heard in SRF, or even experienced, just suffer? Not tell them the truth? When people see things in the writings about Yogananda that disturb them or learn from other sources things that bother them about him, should they just suffer and not talk about it with others? Perhaps, through your own spiritual experiences you can see all of this as maya and so just walk quietly away from it or laugh over it, but some of us can't. Even gurus who are Self-realized will decloth another guru if they misuse the siddhis, or break their vows. This I know to be true. Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 2/2/04 8:14 am
kolorado22 Registered User (1/24/04 9:23 am) Reply	Re: replies to many I can see leaving your guru because you met a devotee who had sex with him or you heard him lie or whatever. I can see leaving your guru if you don't believe he cares. But leaving the guru of your heart because of rumours, innuendo, indictments by former jealous followers, settlements he didn't pay, stupid chants he forgot,blah, blah, blah. That's absurd. If you are trying to convince folks to leave PY you are doing a very, very poor job of it. Why waste your time here anyway? If you are looking for validation for your decision to leave PY that speaks to your heart you won't find it here. Message boards are just as cruel as the world, maybe more so. Find a real friend in the real world. kolorado
nagchampa2 Registered User (1/24/04 9:50 am) Reply	Re: replies to many kolorado, I am not here trying to convince people to leave Yogananda. I even said in the beginning of this thread that it was anti-Yogananda, and if you are a devotee, you should do as SRF says and not read these threads. So, while you are calling me cruel, I just want you to know that I had a warning on this thread. But I think it is cruel that others can't learn the truth because some organization has white washed Yogananda to death. I came because people were writing me to come back and post these things, because people felt that others had a right to know, so that they can make their own decisions about Yogananda. Many on this board feel stuck in their relationship with him, they don't know what to believe, what to feel, and they are afraid to leave because of some things that he warned them about, such as leaving the guru means that you will spend many lifetimes suffering without one. I know what it felt like to be stuck. I wanted to know the truth, and it took me years to find it. It was tucked away so tightly. You don't forget a sadhu mantra, you don't go around abusing your powers by using them on someone else to prove that you are a Great Master. You don't go around using parlor tricks to obtain devotees. But you have a right to your own opinion. And by the way, how do you know whether those partners of his just made false accusations because of jealously? That is the game that SRF has been using to keep us from listening to them. Perhaps, they were telling the truth, and I believe they were because I compared what they told me with others that knew Yogananda and had known of the same things but didn't know about Nerode. And all of the Indians who came to America left Yogananda. From the sound of your post, you are just angry because I used a different name to post. You may have a right to be.
etzchaim Registered User (1/24/04 9:53 am) Reply	Re: replies to many ...and I thought Kolorado was calling me cruel... ...how subjective we all are... Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/24/04 9:54 am
ugizralrite Registered User (1/24/04 10:03 am) Reply	kolorado/chela For some reason I find chela/nagchampa charming and interesting. I must be missing some buttons (that she pushes in others). Kolorado, what a great piece of prose when you wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "...That is because an experienced mystic knows that psychic powers, miracles, and siddhis are all tricks anyway.... everyday life on the sensory plane is substantially identical in scope to the tricks or powers or siddhis that PY used. That is, your everyday sense impressions, whether they be sight, sound, touch, pain, pleasure, are all meaningless noise to your higher body or soul. The same can be said for hope and fear. They come to you from a narrow consciousness that your mind dwells in because it has been tricked into taking a body here. Consider that hooking up a computer and talking to a group of people scattered all over the face of the globe is a miracle far beyond levitating in your bedroom or creating an amulet out of nothing. Same thing with heart bypass surgery or spaceflight. The heart surgeon performs miracles every day, that does not make her an abuser of siddhis, unless of course she is an ego centered @#%$ anyway. If her heart is pure she can go on doing miracles indefinitely, it will not add to her karma, it will only free her. My point is that life in the sense plane is completely absurd, just like the siddhis are." -------------------------------------------------------------------- What a really good observation.
etzchaim Registered User (1/24/04 10:23 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate YB writes: "> Etzchaim to Chela2020: "Honestly, Chela, I don't want to stop posting, I don't want you do delete your posts, I want you to stop hurting." I don't mean to poke my noise here, but this is called laying a guilt trip. It's like people in a cult telling someone that's been molested by the guru that they should keep quite otherwise they'll jeopardize the guru's mission. This is total manipulation as well, you know she's concerned about possibly hurting others by speaking out on these things, so you're playing that card." Yes, John Birch, there are Communists under my bed. Etzy knows that everything she says will be twisted into something that proves that she is in a manipulative cult and behaving that way, so go ahead, YB, lay on the guilt trips about guilt tripping, I can take it, it helps me with practicing detachment...

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