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SRF Walrus > Core Issues > Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples?
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kokio Registered User (3/29/02 8:05 pm) Reply	Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? I do not understand why the female monastics never lead a service, or even speak informally in the temples. This is one reason I seldom attend services any more. It is the 21st Century, and about time to realize that it is time to let go of having roles dictated by sex. Since when is the ability to talk in front of a group sex linked? Of course, Master said that men and women approach life differently...men from logic and women from emotion, and that our goal is to become balanced. I would ask, how can we become balanced if we only hear from one sex? If the goal is to keep the female and male monastics separate, out of fear of possible sexual attraction, then arrangements could be made to keep them clear of each other. How about starting out with a sister speaking on Thursday evening? I just believe that having only brothers speak perpetuates an idea that it is not a sister's or woman's place to speak before a group. What kind of message are we giving the little girls in Sunday School? SRF just seems to step backwards into stereotypes, at a time when other religious organizations in the US are trying to do away with gender typing. I hope one day SRF gets in step. P.S. And how about some women as ushers also? Edited by: kokio at: 3/29/02 8:12:16 pm
KS Registered User (3/29/02 8:51 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? Good question. However, I think the answer is a simple one. They just don’t want to give lectures. The role of SRF is not to serve the membership, it is to keep the “work” safe from the membership. Therefore giving services is just a necessary evil because Master did it. Services by monastics are not seen as part of the core function of SRF. Notice how they won’t start other temples. Even notice that at temples like Hollywood where many monastics live on the grounds the monks still don’t lead the meditations. Serving the members is just not one of the goals.
chuckle chela Registered User (3/29/02 11:48 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? Kokio, for what it's worth, the story I remember hearing is that SRF was set up so that the women would run the organization and the men would have the public duties of giving lectures, counseling, and performing other such services. In fact, when I was initially told this, back around the mid-70s (the heyday of the women's movement), it was explained that SRF was actually progressive in that women ran the show. I have no idea how valid this theory is; it's just what I was told by another member. Personally, I agree that it would be great to see the nuns giving lectures (which occasionally happens at Convocation). You've made some very compelling arguments in favor of having the nuns out there. And the nuns' kirtan group is far better than the monks' (who, with the exception of Devananda, seem a bit wooden): so bring on those nuns! No women ushers in the temples? That surprises me. There are women volunteering as ushers at the Convocations (but it was a long time in coming, let me tell you!), and I would have thought that they'd be ushering at the temples as well, by now.
AumBoy Registered User (4/5/02 7:38 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? kokio, You'd need to go to Front Royal, Virginia, to the temple there. Sr. Subrata leads services. (Unless she's been replace by another nun.)
Kevin Registered User (4/5/02 8:16 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? The story inside SRF is that Master determined that policy: men preaching, women bleaching! It is not that the women must necessarily run the organization, that might change in the future. The nuns' role is to assist in counseling thru the written word. I think that the organization's stewardship will be decided by future Presidents. Master had several women disciples around himself, partly due to the wars, and they carried on the organization. That women do not go around preaching is probably an Indian and Catholic tradition, possibly tied to the fact that women's role was to keep the fireplace at home, or...who knows, maybe the nuns are too cute to let loose! (...that would be the time we'll see some more men at the services!). At this time Master's words and desires are interpreted literally (it says a lot about how 'progressive' the organization REALLY is). The directors tried hard to set SRF into a very sociable acceptable mindset which is VERY CONSERVATIVE at its core. (Most monastics were informally told Master was a republican for example! Now to retain a "non profit" status SRF officially cannot have any political leanings...WHAT? loosing all THAT money?!) Also,following previously set traditions makes SRF more mainstream..which is exactly what they want. DO NOT EVER EXPECT SRF to do anything new or revolutionary it is simply contrary to their mindset, they are simply not capable...or better...they are against it!
AumBoy Registered User (4/5/02 8:26 pm) Reply ezSupporter	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? *Quote:* Most monastics were informally told Master was a republican for example! Hilarious! I know of some devotees today who always vote Republican because they say that Daya Ma votes Republican. It would flip them out to know that other monastics vote Democrat or other political parties.
kokio Registered User (4/6/02 9:40 am) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? My opinion is that Master did not have a strict rule about Sisters and other female devotees speaking in the Temples. That is obvious, because he chose Kamala to lead the San Francisco Center. As Kriyananda wrote in THE PATH, 1977 paperback version, on page 555, "I observed, for instance, our center in Oakland, California, which, when Kamala was its minister, was perhaps the most spiritually inspiring of all our centers, filled with a spirit of devotion, humility, and love." He then speaks of how Kamala had to step down in 1956 due to ill health, and then the real spirit of the center was no longer there. As for the organization of SRF and separation of male and female monastics, Kriyananda on page 553 of THE PATH, says that he reorganized Mt. Washington in the mid-1950s. He says Master often told him that, after his death, he wanted the nuns and monks to live separately. Kriyananda pondered how to make an equable separation and distribution of responsibilities, and came up with "what I believed was the right solution: to place membership activities under the nuns, who ran the main office at Mt. Washington: and center and church activities under the monks, whom Master had designated PARTICULARLY for the ministry." That "particularly" to me does not mean exclusively. With this information, I look at the current separation of monastic duties as something that Kriyananda came up with almost 50 years ago as a way to make an organization work, not as a matter of principle. I think it is time for a change with nuns speaking in temples and groups, and I hold up Kamala as an example. Master chose her to be minister for the San Francisco Center, and looked at a picture of her as a young girl, and called her, "the little lecturer."
soulcircle Registered User (6/2/02 7:01 pm) Reply	for everyone to know, once and for all Kamala steps down, *Quote:* our center in Oakland, California, which, when Kamala was its minister, was perhaps the most spiritually inspiring of all our centers, filled with a spirit of devotion, humility, and love." He then speaks of how Kamala had to step down in 1956 due to ill health, and then the real spirit of the center was no longer there. When they told Kamala EXACTLY what to say, she knew she had had it. She was not about to be a parrot. Yes, she speaks of going into seclusion etc.... the whole ball of wax.. ..came down to the board of directors, or someone high enough up.... told her what she was to say. So it was the highway for srf. kokio please get in touch From those closest to her for 50 years in the Oakland area.... a personal observation from my times with Kamala, Ed and those around them....a query really in her 90 or so years, did she ever exhibit evidence of a single negative bone in her body?..... ..hence her explanation that she left / due to health/ due to master's guidance that she maintain seclusion, rather than be defensive or negative... ..speaking on behalf of the world that knows Kamala, that has been touched by her inspiration... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ my friend was with her the day before she passed a devotee, lovingly mothered her and had lunch almost daily with her the last year plus this "lunch companion" was often joined by the "devotee's" friend (friend and neighbors of forty years) i, at the encouragement of the first of the above, was with Sweet, Innocent, Highly Gentle Humble Fun Animal-Companion Highly Realized Kampala, the Saturday, before she passed 6 days later we passed the time, the three of us, looking at Flawless Mirror, a picture one at a time, a couple paragraphs read aloud from same book, in between always falling in a gentle natural quiet sit/meditation when Kamala gazed into the eyes and heart of her mother's picture in that book, she would say, .."of all the mother's in the world, I had the most loving." years earlier, her husband, Ed Silva, told me of the moment she had told him the title was going to be Flawless Mirror.... Ed started to say that was Yogananda (Flawless Mirror) in every way....when he got to Yogananda's name, tears flowed like a river from his eyes...any more words an impossiblility. perchance gentle reader friend here amidst the posts of this board tears perchance gentle reader these tears perchance you find us mystically a hand to hold across the miles perchance a heart to understand across these computers perchance my tears join yours and we live in some humble compassionate eternity together perchance tears feel Ed and Kamala's love for you always ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <heypoet@aol.com> soulcircle Edited by: soulcircle at: 6/2/02 7:35:34 pm
astral7 Registered User (1/4/03 2:07 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? I think the Self-Realization Fellowship board, who set out the duties of monastics have decided that being on the road for lecturing is best done by the men. And the women are doing a good job with administration in my opinion. As to holding services, in many places nuns or female devotees do lead the services, looks quite fair to me. Services at Greenfield[Front Royal] are always done bythe sisters there. From the outset the SRF has been a leader in new ideas. 1. The first global religious body to have an elected woman as its spiritual head, its highest office as president. 2. The first spiritual path the have an all day widespread spiritual celebration [8hr meditation] to celebrate Jesus birth before the material celebration. 3. the First Path to recognize all religions and prophets in their flagship prayer at all services. as well as in all their writings. 4.the basing of a new path based on clear connections between the Gita and New test is well done and unique to the degree accomplished by PY and SRF staff. 5.The non-intrusive assistance by SRF to all devotees who wish it is not easy to find in most paths. well maybe youare wondering if SRF does anything daring of courageious since master left. Well we can't mention the improvements in some writings like the Autobiography of a Yogi as PY himself began this process and they more or less only completed that. they had the courage and foresight to correct the spelling of the masters name which will help His work in India especially. They Had the courage to fire a top executive [Kriyananda] for many good reasons that are too well known to go into. My experience with other orgs has been that most execs that fail are usually promoted and moved about. You know like relocating in Italy. Personally, I have seen where they have dealt wisely and positively with many good suggestions from devotees. this is fresh thinking and humility. But they did have the courage and patience to go to court to protect His work, and win! They would have to be careful not to change too much as that is what small minded persons wait to pounce upon. They had the courage even after 2 tests to do a third with the courts to prove PYs integrity. did Aananda of anyone else lift a finger to support Yoganandas good name? Most orgs would still be in denial and avoid testing for another 10 years. i could go on and on, but to make a long story short, there seems to be a few people on this board who are trying to make it a gossip column [not against the board of SRF although this is always claimed] But really against Paramahansa and his work. You see, Daya Mata and others were trained by him because he saw in their hearts and minds perfect loyalty and attunment. I think he is pleased with the work being done in his name by Daya Mata and others at Mother center. No arguement - no org is perfect, and above all - SRF does not pretend to be so. The quality of SRF work is very high. with respect -Astral7
username Registered User (1/4/03 4:53 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? They DO NOT have the courage to listen to members! Nor do they have the courage to disclose their financial statements to members!
KS Registered User (1/4/03 9:00 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? SRF DOES pretend to be perfect and directed by God. They also pretend to be lead by a God-realized saint.
Lobo Registered User (1/5/03 10:39 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? "They pretend to be lead by a God-realized saint." Who, don't forget now, is Sri Yoganandaji's SUCCESSOR. Yep, they've gone and pontiff-ied her. Never mind that Rajasi never claimed to be his SUCCESSOR, and he was Sri Yoganandaji's foremost disciple and personally picked by the latter to head the organization upon his demise. Geez, don't you think that if Sri Yoganandaji wanted a SUCCESSOR Rajasi would've claimed the title? Oh well, all he had was Self-realization and Eternal Freedom; where the current pres seems more interested in syncophantic followers who worship her and her never-ending list of titles they've thought up to annoint her with! SUCCESSOR I just can't get over that, it gets me everytime I think about it because it is so darn instructive and telling as to just what these people are up too. SUCCESSOR!!!!!
astral7 Registered User (1/6/03 7:27 am) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? Some devotees Pontfied leaders and most devotees now better. The point is, is that nothing the Good Lady Daya Mata says or does support your Guru Claims about her. But I think her attainment is such that if she had chosen to be constantly out in the public like those who want to be Gurus - she could have outdone most of them. This takes us back to Yogananda's first comment about organizations, "no matter what the leader does or does not do she is always critisized." This is part of the test of being a leader, to have the wisdom to know that there are some out there who have nothing better to do than make incompetant suggestions and accusatioins with the pretext they know all the better ways. And to go on and keep doing ones job inspite of all the background noise. It is not the successors fault that some try to view her as a Guru. Remember Krishnamurti, who spoke against gurus and organizations all his life. He never had a guru but was decieved by an org. However since has left, some of his admirerers treat him as a guru and formed an org in his name. DO NOT BLAME THE VICTIM ! No one on this board has yet shown how and where the good lady Daya Mata does what you falsely accuse her of. Daya Mata -the president of Yogananda church, has never considered herself or promoted herself to be anyones Guru! sincerely astral7
astral7 Registered User (1/6/03 7:28 am) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? How many persons on this board consider Daya Mata a Guru and why?
Lobo Registered User (1/6/03 9:47 pm) Reply	Re: Why don't the sisters lead services in the temples? Astral 7, The fact is that Sister Daya has consistently allowed herself to be held out to the membership as our guruji's SUCCESSOR. That can be seen on any official SRF publication. She has also allowed herself to be annointed with none-guru given spiritual titles starting about 1970 when she became known as Daya Mata. Thereafter she gave herself the title of Sri Daya Mata, Sri of course meaning holy, as in Sri Yukteswar. As if just getting on a role, she then gave herself the title of Reverend Mother Sri Daya Mata, incorporating the Christian title. Finally, whew!, she has borrowed from the Buddhist tradition the title of Sanghamata, meaning of course, Mother of the Spiritual Community. Again none of these titles were, as is proper, given by her and our guru to her. In fact, he didn't even see it necessary to give her her Sannyas name, Daya, which she assumed, and picked for herself, after his demise. So when you try to say that she is so humble, she didn't have anything to do with this, that it's just overzealous devotees, I have to conclude that you aren't aware of how the BOD works, her absolute power within the organization to change anything at any moment if she thought it wrong. Instead, as detailed above, she not only see's it appropriate that she be worshipped by the members, she has allowed all of this to take place, when she could stop it at any moment.

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