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Mystic Traveller
Registered User
(12/2/03 3:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: four of us chatted
Sorry, I have not been getting time lately to contribute more frequently.


Those on this message board who contantly point out Master's failings and misjudgements on certain issues, so as to suggest his exalted public stature was not fully deserved, have not properly understood him.

Yogananda never made a claim to infallibilty and omniscience at anytime during his life time. If you read AY, one thing which one touches is his honesty and humilty. At so many places he admits to his imperfections and lack of good judgement which were commented upon by his Master Sri Yukteshwar. He was a great soul in the human drama and for this drama to be complete the act of fallibility and misjudgement also has to played out.


Which great soul has not made misjudgements in their lives? Should we say that since Judas betrayed Jesus, he should not be regarded as perfect being as he could not judge Judas for what he was when he accepted him as his disciple?

Should the early Christians have attributed imperfection to the teaching of Jesus because his disciple Peter and apostle Paul, started squabbling over issues barely few years after his crucifixion? Paul admonished Peter who was a direct disciple of Jesus. So Jesus was not a good Master since his disciple Peter had to be raprimanded by Paul. Surely there was something faulty in vision of Jesus when he recruited and later commissioned him as his apostle!


Yogananda's true worth lies in the way he taught people to approach the Divine , or Ultimate Truth, in a scientific, and yet devotional, method. He never put himself on a pedestal and made claims to perfection. He lived his life in complete pursuit of Divine and brought forth a definitive and practical science that can help masses in raising themselves to a higher plane of consciousness.

His work will continue to thrive and expand because it is based on true principles. Issues like the ones discussed on this MB are a small and inconsequential blips. The magic of Yogananda's words and teaching will weather all this.

The scene that followed Jesus was much more chaotic and confusing and despite all this Christianity expanded and continued to grow. Disciples of Jesus were as fallible and human as the ones you see in SRF now.

Yogananda's doctrine cannot be attributed as a "cult" since he never expects his follower to suspend his rational faculty and follow him blindly. His doctrine is based on practical wisdom and passes the rigrous test of positivistic philosophy. It is based on the solid principles of empiricism.


nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/2/03 5:04 pm)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
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Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 11:28 am
Mystic Traveller
Registered User
(12/2/03 9:06 pm)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
Dear Nagchampa,

What aspects of Yogananda did you "explain away"? What things made you feel that "he was not a real Guru"? What would be your definition of a "real Guru"?

Please throw a shaft of light for a gullible neophyte like me.

Regards

Edited by: Mystic Traveller at: 12/2/03 9:12 pm
YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/2/03 10:01 pm)
Reply
Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
Mystic Traveller, our views of course differ widely. It might be better if someone with a less extreme approach than mine were to address the issues on Yogananda's credibility which you raised. The purpose of my post was to deflect some of the attacks headed your way so you could catch a little breathing space and slip on in through the door. While everyone here has their concerns and should raise them; I felt that they were too aggressive initially in presenting these views to someone not familiar with these issues. Not a very nice welcoming committee.

The issue you raised about asking why people here like to throw mud on SRF is a very good point. I don't think anyone has really addressed that issue to a satisfactory degree yet. And I'm the type of person that looks for corruption in cults, and I don't see any more in SRF than in Walmart or in any other big business. So I think it's interesting that even though we are on opposite extremes of the "Yogananda issue", we basically have similar views on SRF. I think it's great that you brought up the issue because I never really thought about it to any serious degree. And I think that's why you received such heated responses -- you hit on an important issue that puts a lot of the views held here (almost as gospel) under scrutiny.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/3/03 1:57 am)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 11:28 am
nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/3/03 2:10 am)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 11:29 am
soulcircle
Registered User
(12/3/03 5:03 am)
Reply 		sfr doesn't knock on my door
they know that any number of people come to the chapel at Richmond partly because of the welcome i gave them

because they depend on the service that my gracious wife still renders them, and has cheerfully and steadily for 25 years

[there's a wacko walrus behind every good woman, in my wife's case, me]

and because they sense that fear, fears me

and because they don't want to give me a larger platform for what I and hundreds truly experience

and our experience is that they have done nothing for "community" and the unique community around the chapel at Richmond

they don't even mention how to live schools

and reference their primary stated purpose:
and our experience that their effort to get PY's teaching out to the world has failed (the emporer has no clothes)
after more than 50 years since PY's death:
there is no complete collection/library physically and online of all of PY's original, unedited writings available free to the world public

and to be honest, there clearly is more decency in them, than I could ever pretend to have, especially as I project my own shortcomings on to them

does that answer your questions?

chuckle chuckle circle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/3/03 6:41 am
YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/3/03 5:56 am)
Reply
Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
Here's an article excerpt as an example of aggressive cult activity:

---------------
... Brooks met with two attorneys planning to sue Scientology, she says she became a target. Scientology "had parabolic mics on our windows, trying to get us evicted. They poisoned one of my cats. They sent people trying to commit us as insane. Scientology had us under surveillance, monitoring our conversations, going through our trash," she charges, "I had no idea, even being in the church, what they were capable of doing. We were fair game." Brooks is not alone. In the past, Scientology has devoted not a small percentage of its vast resources to silence its critics; they use lawsuits, rumour and insult to harass or bankrupt.
- Hour Magazine (Canada)/May 30, 2001/By M-J Milloy
----------------

This may sound like someone who is overly paranoid, but Scientology has a long and well documented history of aggressive tactics to silence its critics and anyone who they feel is a significant opponent. This is an aggressive cult. If SRF merely threatens opponents and does not actually deliver through (as Scientology does), they're just a pack of annoying people of no real threat (a non-aggressive cult).

Nagchampa2 wrote: "... if you have seen something or had a very bad experience while in srf and have left, they will tell you that you had better not tell your story or you will be sued."

This is a cheesy practice I admit, but many companies actually do it, it's for image protection. In most cases it's just used to scare people into silence and rarely actually carried out; if they actually go through the legal process, they risk having exposure of the very issue(s) that they're trying to hide. I haven't heard of any actual legal cases being brought against ex-SRF monastics or members. If an actual suit goes through, it becomes available as public record. I don't think that can be hidden, but once again, I'm no legal expert. They do have an aggressive lawyer which they have used in attempts to expand the property range of the Mother Center. For more info on this see -- www.rickross.com/referenc...real1.html


> "... sometimes i like to forget things i have heard about srf that are too grueling to even talk about, and that i have sworn to not reveal because it would cause much harm to others."

If there's really rapes going down or something else to that degree, you're not doing anyone any good by keeping that information hidden. I'm using the example of sexual abuses because that's common for monastic communities. People try to suppress these things -- it builds up, then blows up. It's like a starving person, you have to keep an eye on them because it's not unlikely for them to try to steal a piece of bread. So I really wouldn't be surprised if sexual abuses have and are taking place in SRF. (I still think it's possible that PY may have abused the Mata sisters -- it was probably consensual with their mother though. But that's just my theories which have been considered quite outrageous by many here. ;) ) But back to the issue here, if there are abuses as such going down in the ashrams, we need to know about it. Keeping it quiet doesn't help anyone, it only protects the perpetrator(s). Now I know many people have respect (aka fear) for these perps. But they need to go down if these things are really happening. This is one of the billions of reasons why religious hierarchy is nothing but trouble which many people tend to tenaciously cling to for some crazy reason.

> "... two that i can think of from reading postings--chela2020 and soulcircle, and yet no one has come to their door that i know of. why not?"

Like I mentioned before, threats of suing people is usually just a fear tactic to keep people quiet, and it generally works. But if something insane is going on like rapes -- let them sue. You have to make a moral stand. And how it would most likely play out is that they would relieve the perpetrator of his/her position if you can present a reasonable case. If they sue you and take it to court -- it all comes out in the open, and they're not going to want that in most cases.

If no one says anything about these things, we're all going to have to watch out whenever we drop the soap around Sri Bhagavan so-and-so ji. Why live like that? It makes no sense to keep such things secret. You have to stand up for what's right, otherwise what kind of spiritual life are you living?

Edited by: YellowBeard420 at: 12/3/03 6:12 am
soulcircle
Registered User
(12/3/03 6:30 am)
Reply 		share and tell
YellowBeard420,
we hear you saying to nagchampa2, if it's that bad, let me tell you what to do about it

[and maybe get yourself fried, italics my statement not YellowBeard420's]

may I humorously say if it's good
if your 420 is good, YellowBeard420, please share it

Edited by: soulcircle at: 12/3/03 6:32 am
soulcircle
Registered User
(12/3/03 6:34 am)
Reply 		my request for help
hey you all, I need some help in the humor department

YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/3/03 6:48 am)
Reply
Re: sfr doesn't knock on my door
Soulcircle,

I hadn't refreshed this page in a bit and missed your post before I made my last comments. It looks as though I may be misinterpreting things. I appreciate your sincere contribution and realize full well that this board is mainly for people such as yourself who are having these issues with SRF. I'm just trying to see exactly what the particular issues are. I hope my approach isn't too offensive.

I'm not sure if I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. In all due respect and please forgive me if I'm wrong, are you saying what I think you're saying here?

> "... they depend on the service that my gracious wife still renders them ..."

If this means what I think it does -- some heads are going to have to roll. If YellowBeard has to travel to Richmond to correct this situation, so be it.

YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/3/03 7:33 am)
Reply
Re: sfr doesn't knock on my door
OK, this is not the case. You clarified this in your edit by adding, "... and has cheerfully and steadily for 25 years ...".

So obviously these "services" being referred to here are merely temple services, thank goodness.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/3/03 7:34 am)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
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Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 11:30 am
ranger20
Registered User
(12/3/03 8:58 am)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
Quote:
what they have done at the last convocation is to tell their members that they should never speak a negative word about the organization to anyone, not even to each other.
I was there and I didn't hear this. My guess is that it was not presented as an edict, but in a more subtle form of "don't think negatively."

ranger20
Registered User
(12/3/03 9:17 am)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
Quote:
everything you do you have to ask if you can even do it. such simple things that even an idiot can make a decision on
I've noticed this over time at a particular center. From a time in the 80's when members handled almost all of the day to day operations, to the current state, where someone feels the need to call the Center Dept. for permission to move a picture. Some of the same people too.

Lay members treated like children, in direct proportion to the organization's interest in the group. Is the trend at all the centers? How startling at first, to visit some other churches, where operations are even bigger, and lay member participation is welcomed and acknowleged as essential.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/3/03 5:04 pm)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 11:31 am
YellowBeard420
Registered User
(12/3/03 9:27 pm)
Reply
SRF Structure and PY's Written Works
So it looks as though there are no serious abuses taking place at the ashrams, temples, Mother Center, etc. No more (or not considerably more) than the abuses we face in everyday life. Most of the issues that are generating all this heat against the SRF organization seem to be, at least as I see it, petty. Forgive me here, I should probably use a lighter word, but I feel it's probably best not to tip-toe around this too much.

In regard to the strict discipline and tightly controlled lifestyle that is being enforced on the monastic community (and SRF employees), I do sympathize, but this is what monastic life is all about. It's like the army; there's very little room for personal expression. I don't feel it's a very healthy approach, but that's what the monastic life is. We can't realistically expect it to be different.

In regard to PY's unedited works being made available to the public. This is a nice idea. I would personally like to see that happen. But, PY very much appreciated the editing and writing skills of those who worked for him. He never hid the fact that they helped piece together and shape up his written works. And at the end he entrusted his works to the organization that he founded, SRF. Would it be wrong if we had the same trust in SRF that he had? It's not like strangers are running SRF in these modern days. The Mata sisters (the old wicked witches of the east and west) are his ever faithful girls which have been with him from practically the beginning. So if SRF decides to burn all his original works, so be it. He entrusted all the rights to them. It's not like we're dealing with the Upanishads here or something of that nature. These are simply inspirational writings we're dealing with here. The point isn't the teachings, but how *you* live your life. I think PY has made that particular message quite clear himself. I don't think this odd YellowBeard fellow here needs to go into that.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/4/03 5:05 am)
Reply 		Re: SRF Structure and PY's Written Works
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Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 12/23/03 11:30 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(12/4/03 7:10 am)
Reply 		Re: SRF Structure and PY's Written Works
"And at the end he entrusted his works to the organization that he founded, SRF. Would it be wrong if we had the same trust in SRF that he had?"

I don't think Yogananda really trusted SRF. This is based on both the statement made by him that if he would not recognize SRF in 50 years and from statements he made to Shelley that have been related to us via my Guru. I really think he understood the nature of organizations.

That said, I also think he was willing to 'commercialize' his teachings and use people who could make his writing and teaching more saleable to the American public. There was also a good amount of benign Fascist in him. He admired Henry Ford and Mussollini. It's been pointed out on the Walrus that the Hindu caste system mirrors the Fascist approach. I quite agree. The elements of control within SRF, what you can read, where you can go to church, how you can sit, etc., etc., while being the antithesis to American/Western individualism, while they may provide an alternative for people who are disaffected by the mass culture, are the means by which the leaders and wannabe leaders within SRF are manipulating the devotees. Some of this does appear to have been initiated by Yogananda, though at this point, I believe his head would spin, and, yes, he would not recognize SRF.

ranger20
Registered User
(12/4/03 8:41 am)
Reply 		Re: Nice Welcoming Committee
Quote:
did you listen to all the lectures? it could be that the woman who heard this took it wrong.
I did not attend all the satsangas, and I did not attend the closing program. Also, like everyone, I think I tend to filter out things. I am curious as to who said this and when.

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