The real question - www.ezboard.com

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

Open discussions about SRF

SRF Walrus > Core Issues > The real question
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19	<< Prev Topic \| Next Topic >>

Author	Comment
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 8:51 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Eztchaim: Since the scriptures are against using siddhis except to help others out of compassion, I don't understand why you have no problem with the use of siddhis, but it doesn't matter. Many on this board (I am not referring to you, because even your own guru told you to ignore visions, etc) came to SRF because of reading, "The Autobiography of a Yogi." What was so attractive about that book was that everyone he had met in India used siddhis, even he, himself. We thought that we could too. I know that that is what attracted me to Yogananda. It was all so wonderful and mysterious. But while he was busy teaching others through his lessons, how to read minds, I was feeling deep inside that this was wrong, and this feeling inside was why I had stopped doing psychic readings. It wasn't until after leaving SRF, and after reading many Hindu scriptures and talking to many Hindu groups about the use of siddhis that I learned that it was wrong. One of those scriptures I quoted earlier in this thread; many others I put in other threads. More recent ones that I have found are: Bhagavatam 5.5.35: "Due to this, all mystic powers automatically approached Him, such as the ability to travel in outer space at the speed of mind, to appear and disappear, to enter the bodies of others, and to see things far, far away. Although He could do all this, He did not exercise these powers.” Patanjali, Book III--37,3 "these powers stand in contradistinction to the highest spiritual vision. In manifestation they are called magical powers". Thus these powers in the waking state represent obstacles in the mystical state". You also wrote: "Part of what I'm perplexed about is whether or not SRF is REALLY followng Yogannda's wishes today". As much as I complained and was upset about the changes that SRF had made to Yogananda's writings, as well as other things that they have done, now I find it doesn't matter if they followed his teachings or not, because it is HIS teachings that bother me. It is not just his use of powers, but that is a big one for me, the biggest I might add, but also because my two reliable sources said that in court he didn't know the sadhu mantra that he should have known and so was asked to drop this title, which he did, just to turn around and say that he received a post card from India saying that he was now a Paramahansa (which Agnes Nerode saw), and then he was taken to court by Swami Dhirananda (which could have been the same court case), who rewrote and edited some of his writings, and after Swami Dhirananda won that case due to a contract between them when S.D. came to America, which contract included being paid $8,000 for writing, Yogananda, I am told refused to pay him the remaining $7,900, but he name was taken off his books, leaving just Yogananda’s. I am also told that Yogananda was stuck at Ellis Island and not allowed to re-enter the U.S. That S.D.’s attorney then collected $4,000 of the money and Yogananda then allowed to re-enter, but that the money went to S.D.’s attorney. This I cannot prove. Not to mention that in the court cases with Swami Dhirananda and even Sri Nerode earlier, Yogananda was accused him of having affairs, but which cannot be proven one way or another because no one ever came forward. And would you back in the 30s in America come forward and say that you had slept with your own guru? How humiliating and embarrassing, even if it happened today. I remember how you said that I was going about this in a vicious way, and I think now, Wasn't Yogananda vicious in what he was doing by using the siddhis and teaching us to do the same in his lessons? Paul Pond, PhD. wrote in his article on Kundalini: "The dangers spoken of (using siddhis), aside from the distraction from spiritual goals, are the psychological and physical damage these practices can have on the individual. There are also the ethical implications of the misuse of these powers both for the individual and society". He also quoted others: "Lal Ded, a famous Hindu mystic of the 14th century is described by Jayalal Kaul: 'She cleansed the mirror of her heart for the Truth to shine unmistakable and clear. She took the middle path, of moderation in food and drink, neither pandering to her appetites nor undergoing extreme penance. Nor did she hanker after the siddhis, the miraculous powers which she condemned as fraud and jugglery.'" Kirpal Singh, 20th century spiritual master in Man! Know Thyself writes: "Master-Saints never show any miracles, except in very rare cases, to a disciple due to special circumstances. Miracles are in accordance with the laws of Nature but are nevertheless, terrible entangling webs detrimental to the higher ideals of man to approach the Almighty God. . .The miraculous powers achieved after lengthy periods are instrumental in doing both good and harm, and as they are utilized more to harm than anything else, are looked down upon by all truly spiritual persons. The Masters are in possession of Supreme Power but their mission is sacred. . .Those who are anxious to see miracles are not true seekers." Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:25 am
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 8:55 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Ranger20: You quoted Yogananda as saying: "Indescriminate reading of spiritual books by people without realization can cause spiritual indigestion". You must realize that none of us are realized, and so we (being unrealized) can't read just any spiritual book other than what he has said we can read.
ranger20 Registered User (1/22/04 8:59 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate "Even the Yogananda I was taught about is different from SRF's. He's not a god, or a perfect Master, and he made mistakes." Somewhere is the statement, (Sri Yuketeswar I think), that one is not "safe from error" except in the state of nirbikalpa samadhi. Various of Yogananda's followers give the account of him entering that state in 1948. At the end of an all night samadhi they say he told the small group of disciples who witnessed it, "from now on I will always be like this, but no one will know it." The obvious conclusion, even taking all the SRF teachings and statements at face value, is that PY was not "guaranteed" error proof until the last four years of his life.
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 9:11 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Ranger20: That is very true, until you have entered the highest samadhi, and I don't think that Nirvikalpa is the highest, you will be imperfect, but no one, not even a Self-realized Master is perfect while on earth. Remember even Christ said, "Don't call me good. Only one is good. God in heaven." But we are not talking about small imperfections, we are talking about big ones: gurus who are false and know they are. Even Yogananda knew that he should not be using the siddhis; his Master told him so, and if he knew the scriptures, they all said the same.
ranger20 Registered User (1/22/04 9:17 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate You quoted Yogananda as saying: "Indescriminate reading of spiritual books by people without realization can cause spiritual indigestion". You must realize that none of us are realized, and so we (being unrealized) can't read just any spiritual book other than what he has said we can read. The quote I intended was, "indescriminate reading of spiritual books written by people without realization." The only point I was really trying to make is that I have never seen anything in the writings, even in their current state of editing, that says you can only read SRF books.
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 9:26 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Ranger20, That sounds better. It could very well be that SRF is behind our not reading other books. But I do recall in the lessons, I think, where he says to try other teachings, and then we you have tried them all, stick to just one, which says to me that it isn't good to read other books other than those in the religion you have chosen. Plus, who knows from the various books who is and who isn't Self-realized? Many claim to be and aren't. If Yogananda was not Self-realized until 4 years before he passed over, then should we have not read his earlier books? By the way, the highest samadhi, just above Nirvikalpa is: Sahaja Samadhi, but most Masters only reach Nirvikalpa. Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/22/04 9:27 am
ranger20 Registered User (1/22/04 9:35 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate "That's what this thread is about: does Yogananda's teachings themselves have something to do with the problems SRF and ourselves are experiencing?" That's one of the huge questions here, and I think I came upon a concrete instance where the teachings do relate to current problems. In my experience, teachers practice the teaching methods that worked for them, or derive from teachers they themselves admired. In the AY, chapter 12 (online 1st edition), Yoganada describes this aspect of his guru's training: *Quote:* Discipline had not been unknown to me: at home Father was strict, Ananta often severe. But Sri Yukteswar's training cannot be described as other than drastic. A perfectionist, my guru was hypercritical of his disciples, whether in matters of moment or in the subtle nuances of behavior. .......... Master was apparently satisfied with my spiritual progress, for he seldom referred to it; in other matters my ears were no strangers to reproof. My chief offenses were absentmindedness, intermittent indulgence in sad moods, non-observance of certain rules of etiquette, and occasional unmethodical ways. www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/12.asp (emphasis added) It seems to me that Yogananda probably emulated his guru, in particular with that group of monastics who would be the next generation. I think we now have a situation that those particular teachings have been generalized, and handed down to everyone, in indiscriminate ways, and without the connection and love that is the only way that someone can really believe that "for you own good," is really for their own good. Witness the "perfectionism" effect - what Bro. Devananda characterized as the SRF demographic of guilt and shame. Witness the superficial teachings on depression, as if it is just an "indulgence in a sad mood" that I can choose to snap out of, the way I can choose to quit eating bacon. ETC.
etzchaim Registered User (1/22/04 9:37 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Chela, my Guru also says to find one path and stick to it, otherwise you cannot go very deeply. There is a process that people go through where they search and then begin to discover who they are and how they relate to the various schools of thought out in the world and can make a decision about which way is going to work best for themselves. There has never been any indication that if any of the disciples find that their chosen path is not working for them that they have to stay with it, no matter what. My particular expression of Judaism has gone through many changes, but I still remain on the same path. I incorporate other things into it, but I'm finding that what I incorporate takes on the 'color' of my way of perceiving things, which is filtered through the Jewish symbols and mystical concepts. When I was younger, I needed to try out all sorts of things, when I got older, I settled down. Should I divorce my path, that's a different thing, but there is a wisdom in sticking with one particular expression, if only so that something can get done! I fail to see the problem with Yogananda's statement. I've been asked to choose an Ishta, and have rejected the idea in favor of Consciousness and God, which are the same thing to me. It was a suggestion and it was up to me to decide what was best for me. The same thing goes for choosing a path.
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 9:46 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Ranger20, First, I want to add: We don't even know that Yogananda reached Nirvikalpa Samadhi. We only have Yogananda's word, as well as those other Americans who didn't know much about yoga until he arrived, as witnesses. I agree with you on how Yogananda's Master treated him as being much like how SRF treats us. Yogananda was almost as rough with devotees at times. It seems to be a Hindu practice amongst many gurus, but some are much more gentle than others. I don't care for the "snap out of it" attitude either. People who are depressed have a very hard time being anything other than that. Small bouts of sadness are easier to deal with. Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/23/04 8:16 am
Borg108 Registered User (1/22/04 9:53 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Good point about nirbikalpa samadhi, ranger20. Even great avatars have to accept some delusion in order to remain on this gross physical plane. The first temple Yogananda built here promptly fell into the sea. Sri Yukteswar wrote the Holy Science when he was young and was clearly in error when he said the precession of the equinoxes and precessional cycle are due to the sun's rotation around a dual star. (The closest star to the earth is 4.5 light years away and a 24,000 year rotation cycle is impossible at that distance.) The true sign of a God realized Guru is his or her ability to successfully lead others to God. When you look at the lives of Yogananda's disciples like Rajasi, Gyanamata and Dr. Lewis, there can be no doubt that he could do that. Reading the AY and Mejda, there is plenty of evidence of Yogananda's divine stature and closeness to God, even at an early age. Chela2020 seems hell bent on making her point that the demonstration of siddhis are wrong unless they used out of compassion to help others. Well, inspiring faith in close disciples is certainly helpful to them. Many benefit from this in the beginning in order to more quickly develop attunement and trust in the Guru and his teachings. When Yogananda made the salt shaker lay down, it was in response to a command he received from God saying, "Do it for Sister's (Gynamata's) benefit". He was hardly unique in this regard. The Srimad Bhagavatam is full of miracles performed by Lord Krishna. According to the gospels (which chela2020 says may not be true), Christ said, "Except ye see signs and miracles, ye will not believe." The lives of Babaji, Lahiri Mahasaya and Sri Yukteswar are also full of miracles. Were they also wrong? For example, when the employee of Yogananda's father requested leave to visit Lahiri Mahasaya and was denied it, Lahiri Mahasaya appeared out of thin air and told Yogananda's father that he was too hard on his employee. LH could have found some other way to grant his disciple's prayer to see him, but he chose this dramatic way so that Yogananda's mother and father would become faithful disciples, as they were destined to do. Rmamana Maharishi similarly materialized a duplicate of himself on the other side of India to find a disciple and ask him to come to him. It is the pursuit of siddhis and/or the use of them to show off for no good reason that is condemned by the scriptures. Saints act differently, for the benefit of others, in all they try to do without any desire for ego gratification. That is why they are here. BTW, chela2020, even in the SRF ashram we were never told to only read Yogananda's writings or SRF's books, except during postulant training. If some monastic told you to do so, then he was misguided, or perhaps he was inspired to tell you that because that's what you needed to be doing at that particular time. God works even through SRF monastics sometimes. :-) Edited by: Borg108 at: 1/22/04 3:49 pm
ranger20 Registered User (1/22/04 10:32 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate I agree with you on how Yogananda's Master treated him as being much like how SRF treats us. This issue seems related to the benefit of having a flesh and blood guru. Every one of PY's direct disciples I've heard, in writing or print - even those who make the most of "discipline" - are coming from a secure experience that Yogananda loved them unconditionally, just as Yogananda had that experience with his guru. For the rest of us, who read that in the lessons and don't really experience it deep down, I think the effect is like our basic human condition as described in Developmental Psychology 101. As children, we learned early and we learned deeply that we were loved when we were "good," and were not loved when we were "bad." Whatever the emotions or intentions of the parents, that is the child's experience. As a matter of survival, the child constructs a False Self that is "good," and quickly takes over it's own punishment when it is "bad." We can operate from this False Self all our lives without some radical transforming event, or psychotherapy, or certain spiritual practices that are attuned to this kind of thing. I don't like the phrase "Bliss Bunny," because it has a condescending tone, but it does have a descriptive value. I think there's a legitimate and natural "honeymoon" period at the start of this or other serious spiritual paths, but like a romantic honeymoon, it fades, (and then the "real" work begins). I suspect that people who wrap themselves in the blissful personna long after it's "natural" time has come and gone, are operating from this same "only goodness" False Self that can crop up in any sphere of life. Edited by: ranger20 at: 1/22/04 3:03 pm
redpurusha Registered User (1/22/04 1:12 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Good post Borg. The greatest appreciation I have for Yogananda is the fact that he stirred in me a desire to seek the Truth. Why seek God? What exactly are spiritual laws and why follow them? How to seek God? These questions he helped me answer. I seem to recall only a small number of stories of Yogananda performing miracles, these were individual cases with specific disciples, nothing to do with showing off or advertising powers to attract a following. His way was more by love and compassion for others than anything. I've heard this mentioned a number of times about Sri Yukteswar's idea of a dual star being an error. I am not sure about it either way, but one theory I've heard is that a star could also mean a callapsed star or a black hole, which cannot be seen or is difficult to detect. One which maybe has not been discovered yet, but I'm open to accept he erred if that's the case. Edited by: redpurusha at: 1/24/04 3:46 pm
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 2:30 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate I just know that the scriptures and most Hindu religions are against the use of powers. I also understand the need of those who love Yogananda to justify anything he does. But for those who want to why it is wrong to us siddhis, then they can read further as to the dangers of them, even the dangers of using them themselves, etc. I spent a lot of time questioning this with those from various Hindu religions, as well as reading about these issues from Hindu gurus on the Internet and so on. It would be good for you to know what siddhis Yogananda used, because it doesn't just consist of a few miracles. But to some that would not matter, because even Christians pick and choose which scriptures they desire to listen to and which ones not. "The eight primary mystic perfections are as follows: Anima-siddhi - The ability to decrease the size of one's body and become smaller than the smallest particle. Through this siddhi one may enter into stone or change the density in one's body, enabling one to pass through solid matter. Mahima-siddhi - The ability to increase the size of one's body, ultimately enveloping the universe. Laghima-siddhi - The ability to make one's body lighter than air and fly at will. The perfection of this siddhi enables one to travel on the sun's rays and enter into the sun planet. Prapti-siddhi - The ability to manifest any object one desires within one's hand. This siddhi removes the limitations of space which separate two objects from each other. It is said one will even be able to touch the moon with one's finger [i.e. the limitation of distance is removed]. Prakamya-siddhi - The ability to attain anything one desires.Ishita-siddhi - The ability to control the sub-potencies of the laws of nature. This enables one to control various energies and seemingly defy the laws of nature. On the lowest level, one may make fire come from one's mouth, etc. Vashita-siddhi - The ability to bring others under one's control. Kamavasayita-siddhi - The ability to attain anything anywhere. This is the highest of the eight and contains most of the abilities of the other perfections. The ten secondary perfections are as follows: 1) The ability to be free from hunger and thirst. With this perfection one no longer depends on food and water for maintenance of one's body. One will be able to sustain himself simply on prana, the life air. 2) The ability to hear things far away. With this perfection one can hear any conversation spoken anywhere in the world. 3) The ability to see things far away. With this perfection one develops a mystic vision, by which one can see any person or place. 4) The ability to travel at the speed of the mind. With this perfection one can travel great distances in a moment simply by thinking of the destination. 5) The ability to assume any form one desires. This enables one to change one's physical body at will. 6) The ability to enter the bodies of others. This perfection enables one to enter into the bodies of others and enjoy through their senses. Since ghosts do not have physical senses, they often resort to this to satisfy their desires through other's bodies. 7) The ability to control the time of one's death. With this perfection one may choose the time of leaving his body. The ability to witness the pastimes between the demigods and the celestial girls called apsaras. 9) Satya-sankalpa - Perfect accomplishment of one's determination. Whatever one desires to happen will happen. 10) Satya-vak - Giving orders that are unimpeded. With this perfection one's very word is truth. Simply by saying something it occurs. Besides these eighteen, there are five inferior perfections as follows: The ability to know past, present and future. The ability to tolerate heat, cold and other dualities. The ability to know the minds of others. The ability to check the influence of fire, water, poison, and weapons. The ability to remain unconquered by others. The aim of those following spiritual discipline is to become free from the desire to lord over material nature. Those seeking mystic perfections are motivated by their desire to control matter, subtle and gross. Those who are sincerely interested in spiritual life should try their best to become free from such material desires. I have seen many people who belong to lines that focus on siddhis. Some of the siddhis are amazing, some are just stupid. Everything from being able to pull chocolate out of the sand (the specialty of one particular sadhu) to being able to change the density of matter. Through various processes of meditation one's mind is expanded and the understandings of matter become much greater. All matter is based on sound, so through sound it can be manipulated. Furthermore, the physical realm of our experience exists and is based on the subtle mental realm. Those who have conscious access to that realm can know and do things that we would consider to be mystical or supernatural True transcendentalists have no interest in mundane material life. As such, the rishis did not give much importance to material powers and perfections. They were not interested in acquiring wealth, power, fame, etc. Their aim was much higher. We must imagine how great the spiritual experience of the rishis and yogis must be to turn away from absolute material power - control over the fundamental laws of nature - and sit alone in the forest absorbed in meditation. That is the brahmananda, paramananda, shivananda, yogananda spoken of in the scriptures - the spiritual bliss which is the constitutional nature of the self. Experiencing a higher taste of spiritual bliss, they are able to renounce all lower material sensual enjoyment - both subtle and physical." Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:28 am
chuckle chela Registered User (1/22/04 2:38 pm) Reply	Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing YB, I appreciate your responses to Punk. From my point of view, Punk, Etzchaim, One Taste, and others have all tried to engage with you at various times with varying degrees of success. However much you choose to deny it, part of the reason for a lack of success seems to have been your intransigence and your unwillingness to engage others as your equal. Yes, I know this hasn't always been the case--sometimes you are very civil and engaging--but all too often you appear to be incapable of hearing or considering the possible truth in what others have to say, and accepting that others' experience may have been different from your own. Just a thought; trying to make nice. As far as the theme of the thread goes, the question of whether Yogananda's teachings have to some degree caused all or some the problems in SRF is, of course, entirely valid. Clearly there's no one, universal, simple answer, and those who look for one may be shortchanging themselves, and perhaps others (to put it another way, I would disagree with those who might have a categorical "Yes!" or "No!" answer to the question, although I recognize that each individual has to come up with the answer that represents their experience, belief, and needs). Significantly large amounts of the entire Walrus canon are devoted to discussions of this very topic. I think we might also shortchange ourselves in separating the teachings from the needs, wants, personalities, experience, and aspirations of those who came to the teachings. As we can see, when you ask the question about PY's teachings you get many different answers, many or most of them quite profound, insightful, and lengthy. This seems entirely understandable and not surprising. Perhaps one of the issues involved is the match of the teachings to the expectations of those who present/presented them (Yogananda, SRF) and to the expectations of those who received them (the SRF members and those who came/come to the teachings). Those expectations arise out of many personal, cultural, historical, and social issues. (Chuckle thinks Punk is right in suggesting ample amounts of discrimination, not to mention a wee bit of compassion for oneself and others, may be useful). I think that one of the problems in the SRF community may have been an inability to understand the roles of expectations, which is a result of rigid types of thinking. (And to make it even more interesting, those expectations and the needs of the individual are bound to change over time; rigidity is going to have even more problems with that!). And, as Etzchaim so correctly says, there are many other issues. A final point. I am in full sympathy with Punk: let's talk about anything, including Yogananda. But accusations without substantive evidence are at best meaningless, at worst harmful. I can also sympathize with you, Punk, regarding your frustration and pain when the veils began to lift. What has hurt me the most is not that there have been fundamental problems in SRF, but that significant parts of the community (particularly its leaders) have been so unwilling to acknowledge them, deal with them in ways that would be helpful to everybody, and, worst of all, ignore the pain of so many.
chela2020 Registered User (1/22/04 2:58 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Borg: Then Daya Mata was misquided when she told me that WE should not read other religious books because it may confuse us. And reading just Yogananda's books was not what I needed at the time. The only thing she said to me that made sense, was for me to follow my heart, and since I was thinking of leaving then, I followed my heart and left SRF. I don't feel that you can say that the true sign of a God realized being is his/her ability to lead others to God. The world is full of false gurus who have had followers who were really looking for God. If they happen upon God through their meditation upon Him, then that is God Power, and not always because the guru whom they are attached to is Self-realized. But that doesn't mean that there are not sincere devotees in SRF or that some have not had some experiences of God through the techniques. If you have ever read Cosmic Consciouness by Burke, I believe, he has written down many cases of those have had an experience of God who didn't even have a guru. That was a convenient scripture in the Bible for him to have quoted, but of course, the Jesus seminar, a group of scholars that got together to study the gospels, say that he never said it. If you want scriptures, here are a few: "Deuteronomy, Chapter 18, Verses 10, 11 and 12 ". . .There shall not be found among you anyone who maketh his son or daughter to pass through the fire or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. . . .Or a charmer or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard or a necromancer. . . .for all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord. . . ." It is interesting to note that Jesus never used his powers to exalt himself, i.e. when goaded by the priests or his temptation in the desert. It appears he only used them to heal or save others. Buddha, not unlike St. Paul, was concerned that the possession of psychic powers might tempt the seeker away from his original goal--mystical experience. Yet, Buddha (as well as Patanjali) took the acquisition of siddhis to be an indication of the seeker's spiritual progress. The possession of siddhis is not harmful in itself but the seeker must not succumb to their temptation and must not exhibit these "powers" in front of others. Buddha forbade the use and display of siddhis since he considered them doubly dangerous. They tempt the practitioner with a "vain magical mastery of the world" and confuse the minds of the public at large. According to Patanjali, Book III--37,3 "these powers stand in contradistinction to the highest spiritual vision. In manifestation they are called magical powers". Thus these powers in the waking state represent obstacles in the mystical state". Also from the Bible: "Deut. 18:21-22 - If what a prophet says does NOT come true, he is a false prophet". Yogananda made many predictions that did not come true. Ananda has a copy of a booklet that was published by SRF long ago, and they quit printing it because his predictions didn't come true. I read that he also said that God told him to build the temple on the cliff, and so he refused to listen to the engineers who told him that it would fall into the ocean. As to Sister Gyanamata, how much better it would have been for him to have healed her, since he claimed to be able to heal through God, than to just show her a parlor trick by having a salt shaker lay on its side. And then because he could not heal her, he claimed she was taking on other's karma. To my knowledge, only a guru does that. Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:32 am
Borg108 Registered User (1/22/04 5:20 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate . . . and pausing Chela2020 writes: "Then Daya Mata was misquided when she told me that WE should not read other religious books because it may confuse us." There are three stages of spiritual seeking. In the beginning, it is perfectly fine, and in fact desireable, to read different spiritual books and explore all the paths one feels drawn to in order to find the one that is best for him or herself. Then comes the phase where Daya Mata probably perceived you to be. There it is best to focus on one's chosen path and teachings, imbibing the vibrations of the teacher and not diluting one's efforts. At that time, other spiritual teachings may confuse and even distract one from one's goal. This is why SRF postulants read only Yogananda's writings. Later on, when one becomes more grounded and settled one one's path (and has greater discrimination), there is no problem in reading other spiritual writings. Daya Ma was probably telling you what she did at the time to help you get through stage 2 successfully. Chela2020 continues: "Buddha, not unlike St. Paul, was concerned that the possession of psychic powers might tempt the seeker away from his original goal--mystical experience. Yet, Buddha (as well as Patanjali) took the acquisition of siddhis to be an indication of the seeker's spiritual progress. The possession of siddhis is not harmful in itself but the seeker must not succumb to their temptation and must not exhibit these "powers" in front of others. Buddha forbade the use and display of siddhis since he considered them doubly dangerous. They tempt the practitioner with a "vain magical mastery of the world" and confuse the minds of the public at large." You have to use your discrimination to distinguish between siddhis displayed by seekers who have limited realization (which may harm them) and those displayed by great saints such as Jesus and Krishna, etc. who have already reached the goal of life and/or are acting in harmony with the divine will. Was Christ wrong when he walked on water, changed water to wine, or fed multitudes with 5 fish and loaves of bread? Maybe you're going to tell us now that none of these things really happened, according to some biblical scholar. Krishna, Christ, St. Francis, Anandamayi Ma, Ramana Mahrishi, Neem Karoli Baba, Nityananda, all the SRF gurus, the saints mentioned in the AY, and, in fact, most saints who ever lived have displayed at least a few of the siddhis that you listed. Are they all wrong for doing so, or were they acting in accordance with the the divine will? I would rather trust them than scholars or others with limited understanding making their own interpretation of things. Just as with the spiritual reading issue above, you have to understand things in the right context. What is best for one group of people or at one time may be totally inappropriate for another group of people or for the same people at some other time. I think the trap Chela2020 is falling into is trying to rigidly determine absolute verities in a world of nonabsolutes. This is indicative of black and white fundamentalist thinking, e.g., Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. Old habits may be hard to break :-) Chela2020 continues: "Also from the Bible: "Deut. 18:21-22 - If what a prophet says does NOT come true, he is a false prophet". "Yogananda made many predictions that did not come true. Ananda has a copy of a booklet that was published by SRF long ago, and they quit printing it because his predictions didn't come true. He also said that God told him to build the temple on the cliff, and so he refused to listen to the engineers who told him that it would fall into the ocean." I've never seen anywhere that Yogananda said God told him to build the temple on the cliff. If you have a credible reference for this, then please share it. I have a copy of the booklet you mention. I don't recall Yogananda ever saying when these predictions will come true. They may very well still happen. My guess is that SRF stopped publishing the booklet because the predictions were not very rosey. Chela2020 continues:"As to Sister Gyanamata, how much better it would have been for him to have healed her, since he claimed to be able to heal through God, than to just show her a parlor trick by having a salt shaker lay on its side. And then because he could not heal her, he claimed she was taking on other's karma. Only a guru does that." St Francis saw Christ every night yet suffered greatly from blindness and other physical ailments late in his life. Who is to say that great ones like him and Gyanamata are not serving in the same capacity as a Guru to a small number of close followers? Yogananda said that Gyanamata was liberated, and somwhere in the scriptures it says that one cannot become liberated until you've helped others reach God. To paraphrase Shakespeare, there may be more things on heaven and earth than aren't dreamt of in your (fundamentalist) philosophy. Edited by: Borg108 at: 1/23/04 9:07 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/22/04 5:40 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Chela, I think the main issue I have with what you are saying is that you are calling Yogananda a 'false' Guru. I don't think he was completely enlightened, but that is where our opinions part, because I also think he was a very good Guru. He had a personality and an ego. There's something really, um, almost reminiscent of the Fundamentalist in your stance. Waving scripture around with statements that imply that if one does not accept all of scripture one is being 'false', isn't helping. I became curious about what Nachmanides says about the verses from Deuteronomy you quoted. He was a Kabbalist and Talmudic scholar in Spain and Jerusalem in the 13th century. He gives a long description of the prohibitions in counter-disctinction to the verse that precedes it: "Thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations...". The prohibitions, in Hebrew, are against specific practices that the Cana'anites practiced. I have texts that go into the actual practices. The Hebrew words are specific to the practices. Context is everything. The people who live these laws out in their lives will also readily tell you that anything Hindu is pagan and also an abomination. I wouldn't take it literally, myself, and it's much more fun for me to read about the construction of the Tabernacle and the Ark. There are more meditation practices that have been derived from those sections. Admittedly, I have found less and less of an inclination to practice the Cana'anite divination techniques as I've gotten older. Too many bird entrails... it's really messy, and passing my child through the fire - they only offered their first born - is right out. They would put the charred bones in little vessels. These were indeed what one would call "abominations", even by todays standards. I have my own opinions about the use of siddhis that fall very close to what you are saying, so that is not the issue I'm having. I don't think Yogananda was using them so wrongly that that would make him 'false' by my standards of what a 'false' Guru is. He was more free with them than I would wish, but I can't really say that he wasn't using them to help people come closer to God. To me, Yogananda brought the teaching of Kriya over to the United States, and I'm very thankful that he did because I've benefitted greatly from it. I'm very sad that people are experiencing negativity and disillusionment through SRF, but I've seen how Yogananda's teachings can be put to great benefit for people as well, so I stay in the middle. I also find the claims made by many people that are the opposite of what you are saying, to be equally imbalanced. To me, that imbalance is the real problem because there's a loss of perspective, in my opinion. I guess I don't divide the world into 'false' and 'true'. It's too black and white to me, and very reminiscent of what I dislike about some of my interactions with some choice SRF'ers, or what I've seen on their web pages. I also see this on certain other Hindu sites that are talking about "false" Gurus and have seen that phrase bandied around about my own Guru and his Guru. There are real issues and real fakes in the world. My knowledge of Yogaanda tells me he wasn't a fake. He had a personality and an ego. He also did a lot of good things for people. Because It's difficult to tell what he wrote and what others wrote, I can only comment on what has been handed down to me by people I trust and the fact that some of what he has taught really is very lucid and enlightened. Some of it is not, and that is why I stay in the center. One of the main problems, as I see it, is that the current leaders are not admitting that there is a problem, so that it can be corrected. There are healthy ways to carry on the teaching of Kriya through Yogananda's teachings, I've experienced them, and there are unhealthy ways, which unfortunately, you and others here have experienced. None of us actually knew Yogananda. I keep that in mind, as well. Jesus, by the way, is said to have walked on water for no other reason but to instill faith in his disciples through his mastery, (a book of Jewish 'magic' has been found with the spell for that, it's in the Hebrew University), cursed a fig tree so that it would never grow fruit - because he was hungry and angry at the tree. It was out of season for the tree to bear fruit, but that apparently didn't matter, and produced a coin for the tax collectors when one could have been gotten by asking some one for it, or honest labor, he being a carpenter - a rather middle class sort of career in Ancient Israel. As Borg has pointed out, almost all the sages of India, and most of the sages I'm familiar with in the Chasidic world openly performed a miracle or two, in public. I'm still failing to see 'falsity' problem here. Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/22/04 7:13 pm
SerenityNow7 Registered User (1/22/04 7:19 pm) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate Chela2020, I am puzzled why you bring up the issues regarding PY now when before you did not wish to. What has changed? Now I'm going to say something really radical which I suspect you will dislike. I consider the Bible, as well as all ancient texts to be written by human beings, to be fallible and to reflect the culture of the times. This does not invalidate valuable knowedge being passed down through these texts, but at least for me everything in them is open to question. Here's just an alternate interpretation about siddhis and why their use and demonstration are spoken of negatively in the scriptures. It would be to the benefit of any person falsely claiming spiritual advancement to say that it was wrong to use siddhis while emphasizing that they could. They would say they choose not to because it is the higher path. Hypothetically consider if demonstrating siddhis was considered a valid test of a guru....telling the fakes from the real ones would be pretty easy, wouldn't it? If showing the proof is made out to be a spiritual crime in and of itself, it benefits those who can't show the proof. Another angle is that siddhis are probably frightening and destabilizing to the population at large....the idea of clearly obviously super-powered humans would not be welcomed in most cultures I suspect. I mention all this separate from the issue of PY and his use of siddhis....just an alternate hypothetical view. Cheers! (please don't flame me)
YellowBeard420 Slow Down (1/23/04 2:04 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate > Chela2020 wrote: "For those who question as to whether it is okay to use all the Siddhis that Yogananda used, I let the scriptures speak for themselves. They can go to this and other web sites ..." Thanks for all the links and information you've provided on this. You've really done your homework in this area and have produced a lot of material from different sources. Impressive work on your part. > Chela2020: "And on top of it, he teaches us to use the siddhis, which is not only harmful mentally, but it puts us in the same sinking boat as he is in. This is totally irresponsible. Then to top it off, he says that he is the last in the line of gurus, which just doesn't happen in India, not even Christ was the last in his line of gurus. So now we are left without a guru to guide us in this dangerous path of his form of yoga." This is really well stated. You've focused the issue really well here. > Chela2020: "Many on this board ... came to SRF because of reading, 'The Autobiography of a Yogi.' What was so attractive about that book was that everyone he had met in India used siddhis, even he, himself. We thought that we could too. I know that that is what attracted me to Yogananda. It was all so wonderful and mysterious. But while he was busy teaching others through his lessons, how to read minds, I was feeling deep inside that this was wrong ..." God bless Sister Chela. Most try to deny this fact, but this is exactly why we all got involved with Yogananda and SRF. > Chela2020: "...he was taken to court and didn't know the sadhu mantra that all swamis know, and was asked to drop this title, which he did, just to turn around and say that he received a post card from India saying that he was now a Paramahansa, and then to be taken to court again by Swami Dhirananda, who wrote most of his writings, and after Swami Dhirananda won (which had been a contract between them when S.D. came to America, and in this contract S.D. was to be paid a certain amount of money), Yogananda then not only refused to pay him in full, but took his name off his books and left his own. Not to mention other court cases with Swami Dhirananda and even Sri Nerode accused him of having affairs, but which cannot be proven one way or another because no one ever came forward. And would you back in the 30s in America come forward and say that you had slept with your own guru? How humiliating and embarrassing, even if it happened today." Thanks for reposting this information. It's important for people to hear this. > Chela2020: "I remember how you [Etz] said that I was going about this in a vicious way, and I think now, wasn't Yogananda vicious in what he was doing by using the siddhis and teaching us to do the same in his lessons?" It's important for us to speak out on these issues, because if we don't, who will? People will just continue to sink into the madness of this trap. Yogananda's ideology is like Wild Turkey Rare Breed bourbon. The scent and taste is very alluring, it sucks you in to drink more and more, but since it's barrel proof, it makes you crazy before you know what hit you. The teachings are like this. They seduce you with all kinds of wild promises and overflowing, artificial devotion. It intoxicates the mind in a negative way with the aim of making one subservient. True spiritual teachings are designed to Liberate, Yogananda's teachings put us on the thick leather leash of his will, which was shown to be loaded with personal desires. Diving deeply into Yogananda intoxication produces psychiatric casualties, which has been spoken on before, when we combine meditation with false prophets or misguided teachings. This Walrus board has been set up to deal with these casualties. And the traffic here is huge and there's no slow down anywhere in sight. We have a serious problem here. ----- "Genuine spirituality, however, is not exactly the same as sensationalism and tell-tales. Spiritual persons learn how to glide inside, to dive deeper than concepts, and attain such as 'mental unrelatedness' to the circus of religious concepts and fervent ceremonialism, rigmarole, and gross ballyhoo. Further, it should work well to be mentally vaccinated to avoid any serious sumbissiveness disease. Not everybody recovers from that illness." oaks.nvg.org/ayon.html ----- Let's take a look at this so-called spiritual giant Yogananda: -------- "If there were no death, fifteen hundred million people would monopolize the Infinite . . . The Infinite would be exhausted." - Paramahansa Yogananda, in East West, Vol 3: 6 September - October 1928, 'The Mystery of Life and Death'. -------- Umm, if the Infinite could be exhausted -- it obviously wouldn't be infinite then. Whenever we closely examine his teachings we see dualistic, limited thinking. He parrots the teachings that he learned from his religious training, but shows again and again how he never really experienced true Realization. -------- "Getting overmuch duped is far from healthy, and presumably not too good for anyone. There is a saying from one Upanishad: He who worships another (than one's own godhood deep inside) ... isn't wise, but like a house-dog". [Brihadaranyana Upanishad 1.4.10.] oaks.nvg.org/fila.html -------- > Chela2020: "... after coming to SRF, it seemed that you should only study what Yogananda wrote, which created guilt whenever I didn't." Yes, this is in the Lessons. I definitely got this feeling as well. This isn't flat out stated, but it's strongly implied. No good con-artist flat out says things, they manipulate you. This is common cult thinking to cut people off from information from the outside world which may cause someone to question the teachings. I have to add this quote again from SayItIsntSo, it's really appropriate here: > SayItIsntSo wrote: "I knew a lot of people in SRF. 30 years of service is one hell of a stretch and I met a lot of people. Hence, I never met a devotee who benefited in "this life." Not monetarily. Not spiritually. Not in anyway. It isolates you from OUR world." ------------ > Punk Yogi wrote: "But what I am endeavoring to see is mutual respect. There's no need for anyone to assume a patronizing tone when communicating with those we respect." Agreed. We tend to use this tone to show that we feel that the other person is displaying faulty reasoning (in our opinion). I'll try to go about this in a more healthier fashion. I feel ultimately however much we may differ and argue over some issues, we should do so like opposing lawyers that eat lunch together in an amicable fashion afterwards. I say this to Etz as well. > Punk Yogi: "Actually, I had tried with moderate success to get discussion going about the teachings as early as 2001. It didn't seem to be something people were able to talk about -- probably because it would involve some actual rhetorical analysis." Thanks for the link, very interesting reading. From the article Punk posted: "A videotape of Sai Baba producing a golden chain from ‘thin air’ by actually taking it from the bottom of a plate where it was pasted was smuggled out from the studios of the government television channel and copies were circulated widely by rationalists. Later this clipping, which caught Sai Baba red handed, became a part of Guru Busters, the British television documentary on Indian Rationalists." YellowBeard raises an eyebrow. Mmmm. Guru Busters. > Punk Yogi: "But also, this thread is about SRFers dependency on Yogananda which began with you comparing Yogananda to L. Ron Hubbard." Forkhand originally noticed connections in this area. This caught my attention to explore this further, and I was shocked by what I was finding. Unfortunately Forkhand has been banned from this board for looking behind the curtain, so to speak. I'm only on 'Slow Down' for my peeking; I think this is showing that the Walrus Committee is relaxing their approach to allow a more free exchange of information, which is surely a healthy thing. Let me offer this quote in honor of this fallen truth seeker: > Forkhand: "I hope you all see the light, and by that I mean not some esoteric light or metaphysical light, just normal, commonsense, everyday usage of the word 'light'." ----- > Shadowman (Punk): "First off, very few have substantiated their complaints. From the angle of an outside member, it doesn't put you in a favorable light if you liberally toss around terms like 'abusive' and 'bad ladies' but keep us in the dark about the details." Agreed. I'm still waiting for answers for the justification of the use of terms like "bad ladies". > Punk Yogi: "After reading this, you can probably guess why I wasn't thrilled with your early posts on Yogananda. They were colorful but were too speculative for my taste. I want rock hard evidence." Understandable. But sometimes we need to start our investigations with mere speculation. Daya Mata was 17, and 17 year old girls generally only catch the attention of male cult leaders for one reason. This lead into exploring the ideas of why he was spending so much time with her when the whole world was eagerly awaiting his gospel and tutelage. But this hasn't been able to go much further, so I dropped it. I agree that we need real evidence. But we have to start out probing around to see what comes up. If no evidence shows up, we drop it, and I did. > Punk Yogi: "An SRF layoff has a date and a quantifiable number of people with pink slips. There is an actual house in Sierra Madre. The pictures and texts have been altered -- we have the befores and afters to prove it. But what have we on Yogananda?" True. But by bringing up the possibility of sexual abuses (and other issues) in directions where it looks like such things may have possibly occurred, some old surviving victims who stumble across this board my be inspired to speak out on their experiences. But when we speculate, we should definitely make it clear that that's all we're doing. We of course don't want the board running rampant with wild accusations, this will simply invalidate our efforts. But I don't think we have to really worry about that. How many people actually question Yogananda in comparison to the amount of blind praise and worship? > Punk Yogi: "Upon finishing the AY, Brother Dharmananda called it the best science fiction book he ever read." This is why I consider it similar to L. Ron Hubbard's book, Dianetics -- a work of fiction pawned off to the public as an actual piece of legitimate literature. Dianetics is suppose to be a real "self-help" book when in fact it is merely a tool to lure followers. Autobiography of a Yogi is suppose to be a real "autobiography" when in fact the tales of magic saints and flying gurus (as I like to refer to them as), and a man's long hard search to find a true guru, and who we conveniently learn has become a true guru himself, appears to be simply a lure. How fun, we don't have to search, our guru comes to us mail order style. This is way too suspicious. I think this crosses the line from being merely suspicious, to being a definite possibility, especially considering that Yogananda didn't even write the whole thing himself. This other author was suppose to get a cut of the profits, but Yogananda kicked him in the teeth. It looks as though he's one of those cutthroat criminals that cutoff their partners in crime to hoard all the spoils for themself. > Punk Yogi: "On the other hand, I've had continued, profound spiritual experiences through Kriya. I stepped away from it for a year just to see how my life would change without it. But I found myself hungering for the inner contact generated by the practice." Here's my problem with Kriya so you know clearly where I stand on the issue. Since Yogananda shaped the practice according to his tastes (as most gurus do), when we do it, we're saying that we believe he had some kind of superhuman vision into the subtle workings of the soul. Here's the problem, any meditation that focuses the mind can produce basically the same results. This is why I would mention that if we repeat "Mickey Mouse" over and over, it'll do the same as any mantra if you can do it in a serious manner. So when we get results from Kriya (that would come from any practice), we can easily fall into thinking that there's something truly "magic" about Kriya when it's just another silly breathing and visualization exercise. If we come to think that there's something extra special about Kriya, we then think that the teacher that has offered it has superhuman understanding and has graced you with their blessings. There's so many good meditations out there free from associations with cults and authoritarian teachers. There's great no-nonsense meditations from Taoism, Buddhism (including Zen), and the non-dual schools of Hinduism, along with many other traditions as well. I'm sure Etz could provide some good Kabbalistic ones. Meditations associated with the awareness itself are very effective and empower the meditator directly because they find that their very awareness comes directly from the Self or God, if you like to look at it from that angle. So the meditator learns quickly to identify themself with all that is, which is extremely helpful to keep one on the moral path, meaning refraining from causing harm to others. But like you say, do whatever fits your tastes. Kriya is associated with a lot of corrupt groups. A notable example is the "Solar Logos" Kriya cult that was started by a Yogananda direct disciple. These people are actually waiting for UFOs to come pick them up and deliver them to Salvation. Kriya may actually delude the mind as some meditations do. I say this as respectfully as possible, Punk has some 'colorful' views on life. We have to look at this scientifically. Any concentration practice will have its benefits, but some seem to cloud the mind in areas as well. I remember from when I did Kriya, part of my mind was sharp, but it felt like some other portions were covered by a thick blanket. It was like I had mental tunnel vision. I spoke on this in one of the Kriya threads. Even though Punk's mind likes details, meditation is traditionally an approach to quiet the activity of the mind. Mental visualizations and breathing exercises seem to keep the mind busy. We of course have different views on this ... --------- > Serenity wrote: "Hypothetically consider if demonstrating siddhis was considered a valid test of a guru....telling the fakes from the real ones would be pretty easy, wouldn't it?" Not at all. The siddhis are faked all the time. David Coperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. How much easier to play tricks with salt shakers and the other things Yogananda did. Sai Baba was a very effective 'illusionist'. He gained a lot of influence within government and other circles because of his 'shows'. He's finally been exposed as a child molester, and a video of one of his 'tricks' revealed his slide of hand maneuvers which he used to produce things out of thin air. Check out the link on this in Punk Yogi's last post. It's a very interesting read. [Edited to correct a typo.] Edited by: YellowBeard420 at: 1/23/04 2:27 am
chela2020 Registered User (1/23/04 2:10 am) Reply	Re: Stepping Up to the Plate I don't happen to believe in the Bible either. Borg was just making a claim using the Bible as proof that it was okay to use the siddhis, and I was saying that that same book says other things. The Jews even accused Jesus of using the devil to cast out spirits and probably felt this way due to their beliefs as coming from the scriptures. Even in Acts 19:19, the Christians burned all the magic books. As for the Upanishads, they were written by sages who were in higher states of consciousness. But even so, it doesn't matter if you believe them or not. All that any guru should ask of his disciple is that he uses his own meditation techniques in order to learn these things for himself. I don't buy that about my being a fundamentalist. I have talked to several gurus from different organizations, and learned that it is wrong to use the siddhis in certain ways, that “Supernatural” powers of a Guru are there not for self-gain, including gathering a flock of people that will adulate him, but only to reduce suffering in order to bring folk toward their true identity". I am not just quoting scholars but Hindu scriptures. But much of what I have written has been ignored or skimmed over by others who then just chalk it off as my being a fundie. Yogananda's spinding a salt shaker is not to reduce suffering but to just dazzle those around him with his powers. Same with his other parlor tricks.We have a guru, Yogananda, who has been accused of many things, and all of those things people ignore. They do the same to Sai Baba in India. People still consider him an avatar and claim that he is Christ, and that his performing siddhis shows that he is an avatar, when even India has a warning concerning traveling there because of his sexual abuse with boys. But most of his devotees stay by his side and call it all lies. The same with Muktananda. Two of Yogananada's closest associates accuse him of having sex with women, and people say that they are lying and call it jealousy. Like Yogananda, people call them "judas'", and yet nuns at MC told me that Yogananda said to never cut off the heads of those to make yourself appear taller. Hmmm. He loses in court over his writings, and people even ignore that, saying that he still wrote all that that he did. He uses siddhis at large auditoriums by (I am told) causing light to flash from the palms of his hands, showing objects appearing in his hands, etc. and people say he is showing us that he is a great yogi. I believe he did a great con job that all are buying into, and that is okay with me, because I only wrote what I did to open up the eyes of a few people, that maybe they can get free from the delusion of all this if they desire. If they don't believe me, they can talk to different organizations about these matters themselves and decide for themselves if they want to stay with Yogananda or not. Serenity asked me why am I doing this now? It is because I had a lot of ezmail coming to me asking me about Yogananda; it is because I finally saw through him, realizing how dangerous it is for even us to be learning the siddhis that he is teaching in his lessons. It is because I believe he is a fake, and I learned this through reliable sources, from those who knew him personally, and not just because I have talked with Nerode, but what I learned from those reliable sources is, Sri Nerode has been telling the truth all along, so has Swami Dhirananda. And one of these people whom I have talked with didn't even know who Sri Nerode was. As for not reading other books, that certainly nullifies the idea that you can become initiated and then go to the temple or church of your choice where other books are read. You know, it really doesn't matter what you believe about God or even read about God, what matters is that you reach God, and in order to do this, it doesn't matter what you believe about Him, it only matters that you meditate, pray, etc. All else is dogma. Siddhis are an obstacle on the path, and many who use them unwisely like Sai Baba and Yogananda, to me, are proof of that. The Jehovah's Witnesses, just like Mother Center, told me to not read books outside of their teachings. When those nuns at MC told me to not read other books, I realized that they were becoming much like the Jehovah's Witnesses. And Eztchaim, you say in one hand that Shelly says that you can read other mystical teachings, and you list them, but then you turn around and say that he says to just follow your own path. This is contradictory. Well, I follow a path, and that path says that I can read whatever religious book I desire. As for the engineer telling Yogananda to not build there, it was in the newspapers. If I showed you the newspaper clipping, you would say that it was all a lie. And if you notice from the list of siddhis, Yogananda didn't perform the highest siddis but mostly the lowest ones, those which you learn to perform by the time the kundalini reaches the 3rd chakra (from what I have read). Mind reading, for example, is not proof of being Self-realized; even psychics do mind reading. When you meditate and your consciousness expands, the siddhis come to you, a wise yogi ignores them. Yogananda used them to gather a following at large auditoriums where people came to be dazzled. “The greater siddhis (such as levitation, bi-location and teleportation) rarely manifest except in the advanced stages of spiritual development. The lesser siddhis, however, can develop quite quickly”. (This came from what I wrote earlier and so is posted.) "Saint Ramalingam, who has discussed the siddhis in detail, refers to the attainment of siddhis as "pichu" or "childish play" (Pillai vilayattu). According to Patanjali siddhis are perfections in the waking state (vyutthana) but represent obstacles in the state of samadhi, and allows them no importance for the attainment of deliverance. Patanjali drew attention not only to the danger of exhibiting siddhis, but to the dangers that they present to the possessor; for the yogin is in danger of yielding to the temptation of magic, of being content to enjoy the siddhis instead of sticking to his spiritual task of obtaining final liberation. Pattinattar calls siddhi as "bitter sugarcane" (kasakkum karumbu) to indicate its dual nature. The desire for attracting popular notice through a display of siddhis shows immaturity. As Pambatticcittar says "those who have attained self realization will not exhibit it and those who have not attained self realization are those who exhibit it." But to the true Siddha, who is a genuine kundalini yogin, these siddhis are of immense value, for they indicate that he is in the process of deconditioning himself from the laws of nature and from karmic determinism forever and breaking down the structures of the profane sensibility. Siddhi expresses the quality of mystic experience attained by the Siddha. The real siddhi consists in inner conversion, an inner world of oneness, an entering into the stream of liberation. What is prohibited is not the attainment of the siddhis but their exhibition to others". Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/2/04 7:43 am

Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

<< Prev Topic | Next Topic >>

Email This To a Friend
Topic Control Image

Topic Commands

Click to receive email notification of replies

Click to stop receiving email notification of replies

jump to: