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srfyogini
Unregistered User
(3/18/02 2:02 pm)
Reply 		why?
I am fairly new to this site. I don't live in the U.S but what i dont understand from so many of the comments I have read is why, if people have so much criticism for SRF and the way it is run, don't they just leave and have nothing to do with it, instead of talking about how bad it is all the time? I dont agree with the comments made at all. I know in my heart that Yogananda is my Sadh Guru, and I love SRF. I respect that everyone has a right to their opinion and I am not trying to be provocative with this question, I just dont really understand the point. Thankyou, idf, SRFyogini.

srfyogi
Registered User
(3/18/02 3:30 pm)
Reply 		srfyogini
You may want to check out
www.yogananda.net

It is a message board that may be more up your alley than this one. From what I gather, most everyone on this board hates yogananda.net, so you might feel at home there.
I do.
In Master's love,
srfyogi

chuckle
Unregistered User
(3/19/02 1:23 am)
Reply 		Replies to SRFyogini and SRFyogi
To SRFyogini:

I can only give you my perspective; I hope it may help you understand. Your questions are reasonable ones and deserve an answer, although I think you will find that these questions have been answered by others in some of the older postings.

First, a number of people have left SRF, as you suggest. I think this is unfortunate, but I honor their decisions. I myself have concerns about how SRF is treating monastics and some members and how they are spending our money, but it is a loving concern. I have written Mother Center, expressing my concerns, and offering possible solutions (I’m awaiting a reply). Just because I have concerns doesn’t mean I should leave SRF, does it? The organization never has been, nor will it ever be, perfect.

Second, it may be useful for you to read some of the original postings of the ex-monastics and others who were hurt and try to put yourself in their shoes. Read some of the postings in the “Specific Stories” section. Some of these stories make me weep with sadness. I ask myself: “what would I have done?” I can assure you the answer isn’t very flattering, and I have to admire the courage, integrity, and resiliance of some of these former monastics and employees. But I weep not only for them but for all of us, because all of us are, in some way, affected by these events. As far as I can see, none who stumble into the knowledge of these events emerges without some form of suffering.

Third, as I mentioned above, I am staying because Master is my guru, his teachings are my teachings, and thus far I have identified with his organization. I still see much that is good within it, but this doesn’t blind me to the faults that may be present, that are inevitably going to be a part of any organization. Our challenge as devotees is to find honorable, ethical, and spiritual solutions to these problems.

Fourth, many of the postings made here by those who have suffered have been attempts to: (a)understand what has happened to them and others, and what the causes of the problems are, (b)offer an opportunity to vent their pain, frustration, anger, fears, and sadness, and, (c) discuss possible solutions to the problems. All these are, in my opinion, worthy goals. Yes, it is painful to see what appear to be attacks on Master and his organization, but I think Master can take it and understands, and SRF isn’t about to disappear.

I hope these thoughts may help you understand what is going on here. What many people who visit here need to understand is that this forum may not be for them. Anyone is welcome, of course, but it may be that the issues discussed here are not relevant to them or their sadhana.

Finally, I would ask you for your prayers and loving thoughts. It occurs to me that if all of us are going to emerge out of this stronger, we’re going to need to be supportive of each other, regardless of where our paths may take us.

To SRFyogi:

I appreciate your comments. You may be right that most of us are out of tune with Master, that we have no love and respect. I don’t quite agree with you, as I have seen quite a lot of love and respect manifest in this forum. I have seen efforts at helping others understand, offers of consolation support, efforts at critical thinking and dialogue, and so on. Yes, there are messages here that don’t manifest these qualities, but this being the Internet, you’ve got to use your discrimination!

I would ask, as I did SRFyogini, that you try to put yourself in the shoes of some of these former monastics. This isn’t an easy thing to do, but if you read their postings describing their lives in the ashram and try to visualize how you might have handled these situations, you might be surprised at how you would fee. Then ask yourself if their postings are merely gossip. I have a family member who worked at Mother Center who went through some of the experiences these former monastics and lay members went through. This family member ended up in therapy, quit SRF, and renounced religion
entirely. I heard the tales from this family member.

I find it sad that you would have to describe the behavior of these former monastics and lay members as “sophomoric”; indeed, I can’t begin to tell you how this saddens me. Are we too quick to judge each other, too slow to understand? I can only think that these are my brother and sister disciples, just as you are. We are going to achieve nothing by calling each other names.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the spiritual path is all about self-improvement. I get the sense that this ideal is what drove many of the former monastics to take the actions they did. I can only imagine how much courage and integrity it must have taken to leave their spiritual family and to return to a world they had left five, ten, or even twenty years ago because they felt what they were doing was right, both in a personal and and ethical sense.

You wrote: “If someone disagrees with you or insults you, you don't hit them back. You smile and say ‘What can I do to serve you?’” I would ask, what do you do when you perceive that there are conditions and problems you cannot tolerate or condone? Do you just smile then, or do you stand up for what you feel is right? I am referring here to the actions and words of those who raised concerns and took actions (such as leaving the ashram); I am not referring to disparaging remarks which may be found sprinkled throughout this message board (alas, a seemingly inevitable feature of the online world).

I can appreciate that you might reply that they should have tried to resolve things within the ashram. The point they have been trying to make is that that is exactly what so many of them tried and tried to do.

We can, of course, choose to ignore them and dismiss them as sophomoric whiners; a number of devotees have chosen this route. I think this is a mistake and that we all will be better off trying to understand their point of view, and understanding and trying to rectify the problems that may exist. It seems to me that such efforts can only be fruitful.

Thank you for considering my point of view. I hope I have not misunderstood you. I take your words to heart, that I may not be in tune with Master and his teachings; I can assure you this is not a pleasant thought. Can I be sure that I am always in tune with the Divine? Of course not. My prayer is that I am in tune.

The Bee Keeper
Unregistered User
(3/19/02 6:37 am)
Reply 		Replies
Chuckle: All I can say is, GREAT POSTING.

srfyogi
Registered User
(3/19/02 1:19 pm)
Reply 		Thank you chuckle
Thanks for your posting, and I agree with you completely. When I was referring to "sophomoric" behavior, I was speaking specifically of the Kill the Guru thread, which I think you will have to agree was a pretty juvenile discussion filled with name calling. There were some valid points in that thread, but they were not presented with the appropriate attitude.
But thanks again for your posting. I agree that those who leave the ashram had a right, and perhaps a responsibility to do so, but I don't think they should come here and try to convince others to leave also (not that everyone here is trying to do that). I also have friends who work for SRF or are monastics, and this feeling of mistreatment is not universal. Some of them are very happy and feel incredibly fortunate to be able to make a living serving Master's work.
And I too am very new to this board, so I haven't read a whole lot of the ex-monastics postings, but I will do so. I was just reacting to the few postings which I had read which I found to be inappropriate.
Thank you again.
Jai Guru!
srfyogi

The Bee Keeper
Unregistered User
(3/19/02 1:47 pm)
Reply 		Thank you chuckle
It is so nice to have you on the board SRFYogi. We need more of a balance here.

the Bee Keeper
Unregistered User
(3/19/02 2:16 pm)
Reply 		New Perspective?
Very interesting again. Gee, I guess I have been stung. I will go back and read all of those postings. I guess there are a few people somewhere on this board who think like I do. Anymore?

AumBoy
Registered User
(3/21/02 10:58 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Replies to SRFyogini and SRFyogi
SRFyogini:

The start of the thread was entitled, ‘Why?’ and you also wrote that you ‘just really don’t understand the point’ and that you were ‘new to the forum.’ If you stay and contribute, I would suggest you start simply reading the older posts and work your way back to the more recent posts. There has been a profound amount of pain experienced by others and myself that have been expressed on this board. And this board has been helpful to many in healing and understanding that pain.

In another thread, under ‘Kill the Guru’, you expressed the fact that one (or more) of the posters was an idiot. (I’m aware that you apologized afterwards.) If you simply take that thread, I can see how you might arrive at that conclusion. But it would be out of context. As I mentioned above, if you feel the need to understand, read the older threads and it may put the ‘Kill the Guru’ thread in perspective.

Another point I’d like to make is if one does not understand something, it is incorrect to assume that others are automatically wrong unless we ourselves are the standard with which everything is measured. This is simply not the case. Many things are bigger than our understanding. Years ago Columbus sailed around the world. Most Europeans at the time thought he was crazy and stupid, (i.e., ‘an idiot’) and believed he would fall off the earth. They assumed they were the standard, that their beliefs and experiences were the standards by which he should be measured. He simply saw things differently, felt things differently, lived differently, thought differently. Is this wrong?

Arthur Schopenhauer said, "All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." There is much truth on this board. There is also some drivel. Many people have put tremendous thought into their posts. Tremendous thought. Many have poured their hearts and minds into them. How can we expect to achieve, say, world peace if we jump to the conclusion that those whose opinions differ from our own are less than we are. With all thy getting, get understanding.

SRFyogi:

You wrote:
Quote:
If someone disagrees with you or insults you, you don't hit them back. You smile and say "What can I do to serve you?"


Really? And the work is done? It is not that simple, although I wish it were. As chuckles stated, ‘what if it were something that you do not condone.’ Would you simply smile and ask how to be of service? Master writes that when you smile at someone who is doing something you know to be wrong, (i.e., immoral, unethical, illegal, reckless, etc.), you are condoning, supporting, and encouraging that particular behavior. Would you simply smile in these cases?

Let me share some hypothetical examples that you may or may not be able to relate to:

1. Suppose you are married and have four children. And suppose that one evening during a discussion with your wife you strongly disagreed with her. The next day when you returned from work you begin to notice that your children and your wife are doing their best to avoid you. They don’t talk to you and avoid contact as much as possible. You ask what is wrong and you are lied to. Would you simply smile and ask how to be of service? Your behavior over time would change. And your behavior would change over time because what is occurring at your house is unhealthy, unnatural, and dysfunctional. You may smile and do your best, but it would be a tremendously difficult. Maybe you would rationalize and say that it is simply ‘training’. But is it that simple? (Steven Covey re-writes rationalize as ‘rational lies.’)

2. Suppose you are working for a well known company. Fabulous reputation. Everyone wants to work there. Many of your friends (who do not work there) tell you how wonderful it must be for you, how happy they are for you, how happy you are. Then you find that what your friends’ perceptions are and what the reality is do not agree. Say your boss asks you to doctor the books or lie to a state investigator or do something else that violates your integrity. Would you simply smile and ask how to better serve your boss? Let's throw a wrench in this: What if you had dedicated your life to this company? You are getting paid a handsome amount of money and you have a family dependent on your income. This job market is in flux and any other job would mean less pay. Would you find more creative ways to doctor the books? Tell more creative stories to an investigator? You would find that you would begin to lose sleep if you did these things for your conscience would let you know in no uncertain terms. Would you smile and go along with it? Or would you say no, risk your job, your lifestyle with your family, and save your integrity? This is not an easy answer.

Master encourages deep-thinking. As Chuckle wrote, “what do you do when you perceive that there are conditions and problems you cannot tolerate or condone?”

You wrote:
Quote:
The sad part is that many of the participants in this message board are or used to be monastics. A monastic should have an even stronger desire and drive to improve themselves. To ignore Master's teachings and engage in this sophomoric behavior is very detrimental to spiritual practice.


Where do you get the idea that a monastic ‘should [sic] have am even stronger desire and drive to improve themselves?’ Do you know this? Do you believe this? Or do you, simply, assume this? I can believe the world is square but that does not make it so. I can assume, based on my limited experience, that I understand the Theory of Relativity, but that does not make it so. (It's not like Los Alamos is knocking on my door begging me to work for them.) I can know something ('The sky is blue') and there is not a thing any person can say or show me that would make me change my mind. You’ve also seemed to judge those participating on this board as ‘sophomoric’. How do you know that Master isn’t using us to help reflect back to those on the Mountain what the effects of their behaviors and decisions have on others? Maybe they don’t care. Maybe they never will. My posting here on this board has expanded my understanding of organizational behavior of SRF. You must also realize that monastics are people, too. Just like you. Most of us put on our pants one leg at a time. Only a few could levitate into them. When you assume that a monastic is better than you simply by virtue of being a monastic, you may be feeding a superiority-inferiority complex. Of course, some of the monastics think of themselves as ‘elite’ which does the same thing. Not all monastics are seeking God. Bro. Anandamoy quipped in answer to a question, "SRF has no monopoly on saints."

You wrote:
Quote:
I'm sure I'm going to get many an insult flung upon me for writing this, but I welcome it. I hope that anyone who writes a disparaging remark about what I have to say will see my words reflected in their actions and will think twice about how they are going about achieving life's ultimate goal.


Do you want to be insulted? Why should you expect people responding to your post to be insulting? Is that the standard that you expect when people don’t agree with you? I don’t agree with everything posted on this board but I understand why and where it is coming from for I’ve been there. I think it was Dr. Wayne Dwyer who revealed that he used to tell people who had been through a bad divorce how to deal with it. But he did not understand it until he went through it himself. Then he knew. It was not an intellectual exercise for him, he had experienced the pain and could really relate on a different level. (I’m not sure if it was Dwyer or if it was some other crisis than divorce but the same holds true.)

If you stay and read through the older postings and some of the more recent ones, you will see that there are those who have something to contribute here and others who react out of fear. It is up to each person to choose his own way. This board is not for everyone.

My heart goes out to those who do not understand, to those who do not wish to understand, and to those not understood. On one of the SRF tapes, Daya Ma mentions making up for the love of those who forget God. I feel this, too, sometimes. I also feel like making up for the lack of understanding of others. I cannot begin to relate what it feels like to remain awake for over three days straight because my conscience would not let me condone and support behavior that was highly detrimental to SRF as an organization. I cannot begin to relate the pain that I felt in my heart and mind. I cannot begin to relate how I clung to Master throughout this period. I think about this now and simply cry. I tried my darnedest to sacrifice my integrity, to sacrifice my honor, and all principles I held dear. But my conscience and my Guru would not allow it. (In fact, I had spoken to several of my brothers who daily would go to their rooms at the end of the day and cry because of things they were asked to do. Daily.) There was no congruence between the teachings and the behaviors I was asked to perform. As one lay member asked me at one time, "Do the monks get the same [SRF] lessons as everyone else?"

I sometimes wish I could return to the rosy-eyed outlook I had as an SRF-neophyte. I cannot. I pray to always see the Truth and avoid evil in even its subtlest forms. Each one of us has a different and unique path to God. Let us hie Homeward within. :)

Edited by: AumBoy at: 3/22/02 9:34:17 pm
Pig Ma
Registered User
(3/22/02 11:33 am)
Reply 		Re: Replies to SRFyogini and SRFyogi
Dear Aumboy,

Thank you for artfully replying to the Why? question. These last few days I have been crying, which surprises me, but it is a time of cleansing. I had a counseling session that emphasized the most loving and positive approach to what I now consider a "death" in my perspective- the death of what I believed SRF represented, and what I now believe to be the reality. I have no need to criticize an organization made up of people who have made some questionable decisions. What I am reaching for is the light and love of God, and how my sadhana will unfold to bring this more fully into my life on a daily basis. Despite the tears I know that this is one of the most positive and pivital times in my life, and I am grateful for the journey. I feel free, uplifted, not needing to judge, but ready to observe and respond to life while being open to the love that permeates every atom of our beings.

AumBoy
Registered User
(3/22/02 9:42 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Crying
Pig Ma,

Years ago, when a member was crying, Sister Subrata told her that when you cry, you burn up karma. (Sister Subrata is a real powerhouse!) Maybe we should add crying to our daily repetoire? Of course I think it is the reason behind it, though.

Quote:
I feel free, uplifted, not needing to judge, but ready to observe and respond to life while being open to the love that permeates every atom of our beings.


The Aum vibration. The True Witness.

username
Registered User
(3/23/02 6:02 am)
Reply 		Re: Crying
This is where again there are problems with SRF teachings. If you are crying all the time for a period of more than two weeks, this is not healthy. It is a sign of depression. And you are not burning up karma.

You need to get some assistance, I'm not saying go on medicine. Maybe you need to write up the experience (in detail) that is making you sad. And tell it to someone.

Or you can use a therapist to talk to.

Or perhaps, there is an unrelated medical condition that is bothing you. Then a holistic MD is useful.

But if someone is constantly crying all the time, you need to look at his life, something is not working for this person. Perhaps, there is no one (or organization) that is giving you support. Be aware that your parents don't always give you the support you need. Be aware that your church doesn't always give you the support you need. Be aware that your spouse doesn't always give you the support you need. even if you have used all these channels and you are still sad, it is possible that you still haven't gotten the support you need.

Pig Ma
Registered User
(3/23/02 8:57 am)
Reply 		Re: Crying
Dear Username,

I think you made some good points. I am grateful that this is a time of cleansing and transition, and not of depression. I do not believe I've ever been clinically depressed, because I've been able to ease out of the blues using various tactics that I'll now list:

1. Fast or cleanse. It always brings me a feeling of well being.
2. A dip in the ocean, even in the winter. For those who have no ocean, try a hot and cold shower. Go from pure cold, to as hot as you can stand it, to pure cold, etc. This is always good for the tingles!
3. Exercise to the point of sweatiness, followed by a shower and vigorous rubbing of the skin as you towel off.
4. Clean the house, including the closets. Throw out stuff that is no longer needed.
5. Laughing, however it can be generated.
6. Allowing a day or two to "grog" without judgement. Then use some of the tactics above to get going again.

That's all I can think of now.

Aumboy, I love Sister Subrata. We were together during Youth Retreat for many years until the last few when she no longer held that duty. I had never heard that comment about crying, and so now I'll value the times when tears are shed.

The counseling session was a little unusual for me. I am lucky to have a family member (my brother in law) who is professionally trained and who has causually filled the role throughout the years when the need arose. But for some reason I felt the need to see Tom Kelly (formerly known as Brahmachari Keith) in this role, and I am glad I did. Now I can see why someone would seek out counseling in this way- it was fantastic!

When I was talking to my brother in law about what happened, he said that the fact that Tom Kelly was an ex monk probably facilitated the process, and I believe he is right. (However, he is still very much a devotee of Master's.) Plus, I believe Tom Kelly is very gifted in this area, and was able to use his intuition, experience, and professional training in a unique way to guide me through the process.

AumBoy
Registered User
(3/24/02 6:37 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Crying
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." – Buddha

Username and Pig Ma,

You’ve both raised very good points.

The activities you stated Pig Ma, are very useful in overcoming bouts of depression. Most any activity would be useful, the key ingredient being to move.

The items you listed, Username, regarding symptoms of depression are good, too. I’m sure they’ll be helpful to many reading this thread. I mentioned the comment by Sr. Subrata because, in the context of this thread, Pig Ma did not seem to be chronically depressed. I thought the comment would be helpful to her.

But you do raise an interesting point: The literal interpretation and application of the teachings or comments made by monastics without thinking. One should always question whether it is a general comment meant for all, for some, or for one person only. The comment Sr. Subrata made was, I felt, appropriate for the original person she mentioned it to and for Pig Ma. Common sense (intuition) and discrimination must prevail.

This reminds me of a, somewhat, humorous story:

Many years ago a friend of mine related an incident that occurred to me when he first joined SRF. He had read that God is in all, God is all, we’re all souls, all men are brothers, etc., etc., etc. One day when he returned from work (thinking the above thoughts) he met a homeless man and invited him into his house. He told the man he could wash up and take a bath. Which the man did. After bathing my friend gave him a robe to put on and went about business cooking for the homeless man. My friend left his kitchen for a moment and the homeless man entered. When my friend returned, he noticed a knife was missing and started to get increasingly nervous. The homeless man smiled at him. (Now I do not know if my friend actually misplaced the knife or if the homeless man picked it up.) My friend got so nervous that he ran out of his house, onto the street, and started yelling, at the top of his lungs, “Satan get out of my house! Satan get out of my house!” Repeatedly. Until the homeless man left. (The homeless man may have thought my friend lost his mind.) My friend informed me that, prior to SRF, he used to be a born-again Christian. That’s where that chant came from.

Later, my friend called Mount Washington for counseling. When the monk finished laughing hysterically at the above story, he told my friend, “You can’t do those things. We’ve just come out of the Kali Yuga and you need to be careful.” Common sense. Bro. Anandamoy has stated that there is a universal lack of common sense.

One on the video, Glimpses of a Life Divine, Mrinalini Ma states that Master told her, “I have no time for your logic. Follow me blindly.” (Or something to that effect.) How many ask what this means? Was it just for her? Was it for all people all the time?

There is a story of two women who left some valuable items in their car and neglected to lock it. “Master will protect us” sort of thing. The items were stolen. Master told them the lock their car.

On the Yogananda.net board, there is a story of the nuns having guard dogs. Common sense. The areas around MW are not exactly safe.

In my response to SRFyogi above, I neglected to mention another point. Master mentions replacing bad habits with good habits. If a good habit of smiling and service replaces a bad habit of doing something else, that is good. But Master writes that the problem with good habits is they cannot help one in unfamiliar situations. This is where common sense and discrimination come in.

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