Moral Courage - www.ezboard.com

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

Open discussions about SRF

SRF Walrus > Core Issues > Moral Courage
Page 1 2	<< Prev Topic \| Next Topic >>

Author	Comment
Deep Unregistered User (10/18/01 6:30 am) Reply	Moral Courage There is no will to do better. Correcting strong minded people is difficult and uncomfortable. When Tara Mata, Ananda Mata, Mridani, Jill, Sharana, and Jacquie, among others, do (or did) these weird hurtful disappointing things Daya and the others don’t do anything about them. Excuses abound. It is training, or Master’s will, or a number of clever excuses. But in fact it is a lack of moral courage to do the right thing. It is laziness and cowardice. The leadership is more interested in avoiding unpleasantness (pseudo harmony) than in guiding Master’s work. Things will never be perfect, but when problems come up it is up to the organization to attempt to correct them, not ignore them.
xmonk Unregistered User (10/18/01 8:28 am) Reply	Moral Courage Deep, you spoke of all the "underlings" doing those awful things and Daya doesn't do anything to stop them. Well, it's true. She hasn't done anything to stop them, but where do you think they learned it in the first place? For many years I bought the line that Daya Mata was so spiritual that she was a saint and right there with the Guru. Yet, I saw how absolutely ruthless that she can be. It seems to be the way things are handled in the ashram. It was hard for me to deal with. I noticed that Uma, Mrinalini, Mridani, Parvati, Priya, Satyananda, Anandamoy and many others, ascribe to the same thing. I even noticed that Gyanamata espoused the bad treatment. It was all under the notion that we all had to have all these bad qualities "beaten" out of us. Yogananda was guilty of being less than kind to the monastics. Rajarsi was very hard to deal with. My ongoing question was, where is all this love that I kept reading about? How can you equate love with abuse? The answer is YOU CAN"T!! I believe that, from it's inception, Self Realization Fellowship was, and has continued to be, a cult. I do not exonerate any of the leadership from that statement. The lies, the brainwashing, the encouragement of blind faith and unquestioning obedience and the discouragement of free thinking are ALL indications of classic cult. How they can equate all of the above with finding and loving God is beyond comprehension. God is love. Only if you want to believe the early Christians, and the like, can you conceive of a veangeful God who is just waiting to punish you severely for some mis-step or another. It just seems as if the mentality of SRF is that we must suffer, and that abuse by those in command is vital to one's spiritual growth. Since leaving the ashram, I have determined to forget all the ritual and dogma of SRF, ALL OF IT. My love for God has not dwindled one bit. Quite the contrary. My relationship with Him is one on one. No intermediary. No guru. No organization or religion. Never again will I be trapped in another cult or religion and I will never follow another man in my relationship with God. I don't know what I must have been thinking to allow someone to take control of my mind like that. I have never been happier, nor have I ever felt as blessed as I do since I have made this move. God IS love. Just give Him a chance.
Lurking Unregistered User (10/18/01 11:08 pm) Reply	Inner sanity I sympathize. I don't post because I sit on the fence with doubts. I would like to find a way to make our organization better, to not harm others, but to serve others more. My conclusion: we're too big, we've become too ossified. Still, there is much good and Guruji is with us more than ever, inside.
KS Unregistered User (10/22/01 6:47 am) Reply	Not too big Lurking, I don't believe the problems with SRF are due to its size. As you look into thing more and more they have been weird since the matas took over. They lack moral courage, especially Daya. She allows mean, power hungry, paranoid people to turn the place into the disappointing place it is and does nothing to stop it. It has been that way since the 1950’s when they were much smaller. People’s conduct does not depend on the size of the organization. They need to learn the basics of right behavior. P.S. I know many feel daya has the same disappointing qualities of meanness, paranoia, etc, but I have not seen it personally yet so I don’t include it.
stermejo Registered User (12/8/02 12:00 pm) Reply	Re: Not too big Yes, yes, the basics of right behavior. My post is just a "here, here!" A person whom I know just getting their feet wet in this called up MC to ask some question about dreams and was badly handled. Well, the dear one on the other end got a blistering, I'll tell you, and was clearly advised of how rude they had been. Now, my friend knows me and when I'm asked about "things" in the writings, I strongly demure and say to call MC for questions. In fact it's my friend who has "taught" me that I don't anything helping my by a strong stubborness to see that most of my belief is just that belief. Not knowledge, and experience. But, I digress. My point i sone doesn't have to be over one's head in SRF to feel the pinch!
srflongago Registered User (12/8/02 2:07 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Reply to xmonk. I believe that SRF-Yogoda was definitely not a cult from 1920 to 1935, at which time the Church was incorporated. Rather, it and Yogananda brought a powerful message of Kriya to the West. Gynamata represented an extreme view at that time, entirely based on her own religious background. After 1935, Yogananda and the organization evolved into something altogether different. But the pre 1935 message was a good one.
chela2020 Registered User (12/11/02 5:00 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Dear srflongago, I agree with you that SRF was different and not a cult before 1935. But why do you think that it is a cult today? I have come to understand that gurus have always scolded their devotees when they felt that it was needed. Is it that SRF takes it to the 3rd degree, so to speak? Is it that they are not Self-realized to the extent that they know what is best for each devotee? And isn't living in a monastery much different than what the lay members have to deal with? I just never saw cult activity as a lay member. The most I saw was that is was suggested that I don't read literature from other religions because "it may confuse me", and that it was disloyal to find and read Yogananda's original writings, and that in itself was enough to make me run because to me that is the beginning of a cult. But they never interferred with my life in any other way, and had I not asked them if it were okay to read other literature or have original writings, I would have been far better off. I just had this underlying feeling that it was wrong and so asked, and some nuns said it was okay, other's not, and so I went to a head monk, and after that I realized that it was certainly NOT OKAY.
psychdev Registered User (12/11/02 9:37 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage srflongago: I too am trying to understand what you mean by "cult". It sounds like you mean something like "organized and dogmatic" (post 1930's incorporation)? The word "cult" means a lot of different things to different people. Could you be more specific? FWIW I've already posted that Mennonites, Amish, Seventh-Day Adventists, or even Franciscans, and virtually any strict Indian Ashrams seem to qualify as a "cult" in the sense people are using it here. Yet virtually no one would refer to Mennonites, Amish, or Franciscans as "cults"--because this word conjures up Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, and the like. I question the fairness of using that word rather than specifically desribing what you mean e.g., "dogmatic", "hierarchical", or whatever). If you are more specific, it's a lot easier to have a discussion. If you'd like a more specific definition of "cult", perhaps we could use the definition provided by sociologists or many of the popular books on cults. (I don't think dictionary definitions are very helpful.) These definitions usually include the idea of a single, charismatic leader with strong narcissitic needs to exploit others, along with geographic or psychological isolation. (I've forgotten the rest of the definition) SRF, I think, doesn't really fit that definition at all. One person's opinion. Edited by: psychdev at: 12/11/02 9:39:41 am
srflongago Registered User (12/11/02 12:13 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Psychdev:To me a cult is an organization that enforces conformity to fixed beliefs by many kinds of pressure, rather than by appeal to reason, the soul, and compassion. I made no assertion about SRF being a cult for the last 50 years, since I was not there. I simply said that in my opinion till 1935 SRF was not a cult, in that then its appeal was an appeal to reason, the soul, and compassion, not to conformity to a creed, not to blind obedience to others. Edited by: srflongago at: 12/11/02 3:27:00 pm
chela2020 Registered User (12/12/02 2:25 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Dear srflongago, By your definition of cult, any monastery would be considered one, because they have strict rules of conduct, and you have to conform. In SRF I never was told that I had to conform, but I was not a nun. I basically did as I pleased. All I knew was that they didn't think that you should really read other religious books or go to other organizations, but they didn't reject you if you did any of those things. A cult whould have thrown you out. But I agree with you that at times they did not use compassion, instead they threw around words like, "You have to be loyal to the guru," when in fact Yogananda would never had taught us to not read other religious books, and he said to go to the temple or church of your choice. Edited by: chela2020 at: 12/18/02 4:37:35 am
chrisparis Registered User (12/12/02 7:43 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage There is a difference between a cult and an organization that demands a high degree of obedience and throws you out if you don't toe the line. Typically a cult works to undermine a person's outside support networks, whether material or psychological, and to make the member totally dependent on the cult. This is accomplished through brainwashing techniques, pure and simple: sleep deprivation, undermining a person's sense of individual self worth, undermining their confidence in making appropriate descisions. In the early stages of the process the prospective member is kept actively engaged all the time, and not allowed sufficient rest or, usually, adequate nutrition. The "programmer" will alternately be harsh and dissapproving, then he/she and the group bombs the prospective member with love and support. Everything is designed to force the prospective member off balance and keep them off balance, physically, emotionally, and psychologically. Ultimately, the member comes to look to the leadership for approval of absolutely every aspect of their life. To get a better idea of how this is done, check out Lifton's "Psychology of Totalism". He wrote it after studying the techniques used by the North Koreans to brainwash captured American troops. In light of this can it be said that SRF is a cult? I haven't lived or worked at MW, so I can't say with assurance. At most, the organization as a whole could probably only be called "cult like" given that its membership is scattered all over the place, and so can't be corralled into the kind of tightly controlled environement where such thought control techniques could be practiced on them. On the other hand, from what I saw when I visited MW, and from what I have read here on the Walrus, I have to say that a case could be made that SRF in its ashram settings is strongly cult like. What is read or watched is tightly controlled, approval an disapproval are used in random ways to keep people off balance. THe monks and nuns I met didn't look like they were well nourished at all (other than the older matas. THEY looked like they weren't being starved). But the truth is that you can leave SRF any time you want to, and, aside from the threat of becoming a spiritual degenerate for being disloyal to master, there is little attempt to coerce you into remaining. In any event, after reading what I have on the board I have come to conclude that what spirituality there is in SRF lies far from headquarters, and is probably mainly to be found among those members who quietly follow the techniques at home, earnestly entreat God to enter their beings, and stay far from the administrative center of things as much as possible.
chela2020 Registered User (12/12/02 5:55 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Chrisparis, Amen! That is what I learned after I left a certain organization years ago and began reading books on cults and was able to identify that they were a cult in the true sense. And while their organizations are scattered all over, they can indeed brainwash you, keep an eye on you, and throw you out if necessary. So I was very careful when joining SRF. I didn't see any cult-like activity, but when I even got an inkling of it by being told by some, not all, monks or nuns, that I should only read Master's books, that I should not read his original writings because both actions were disloyal, I ran. But I do believe had I not been easily influenced by guilt, I would not have asked or even listened to them. There are those in SRF who have his original writings, but they keep it a secret. Then there are those who openly read books from other religions and go to see other gurus or monks. I was with a Christian friend of mine in the Heaven on Earth bookstore in Encinitas. I saw two women looking at used books and overheard them talking about Convocation. I asked them if they were in SRF. Yes. I told them that I was looking for a used book by Thich Nhat Hahn, but it seemed that no one ever gave up his books. They both said that they loved him, and so when I told them that he was giving a lecture in San Diego that week, they wanted to go. So my feeling is, if you have a mind of your own, if you are secure in yourself, SRF cannot affect you in regards to what you feel is right or wrong. Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/28/03 4:59:58 am
chrisparis Registered User (12/13/02 7:17 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Dear Chela2020, Yep, you have to Know something to be a Gnostic, so it is antithesis to people who are in charge of cults to allow the members to read, hear, watch, or discuss anything that varies from the party line. AND, the party line can change from hour to hour, so cult members who stay on become adept at conforming to the whims of the leadership at a moments notice. OUCH! What a psychologically painful way to live. I would still opine, though, that it is difficult to exercise that kind of control over people by correspondence course. For one thing, the member then has policies and beliefs in writing. THAT'S why it is considered disloyal to read PY's original writings. God Bless you.
psychdev Registered User (12/13/02 1:13 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage chrisparis--thanks for giving a definition of cult which first-rate--much better than what I was able to come up with (although I would probably add something about a charismatic leader). I don't know much about the nuns or MC, but I did live at Hidden Valley for several months and have stayed there for 2 weeks every year for the last 20 years (will be leaving in about 2 weeks). I can tell you that people at HV are indeed well nourished! (It's a bit of a joke around ashram that the "refectory" where food is served, is the object of a "great veneration", and "sincere pillgrimage". No systematic sleep deprivation either, although I think it's probably noticed if you are someone who gets up at 5 AM to meditate rather than rolling out of bed at quarter to 7. Likewise, some duties at the Ashram may be exhausting and once every few weeks people have "boiler duty", which entails taking a turn at watching the boiler all night (!). But there is nothing like the brainwashing which Moonies, for example, (enforcing little sleep, constant activity, good cop/bad cop routines, or the like. It's pretty benign. I found Br. Lee, the "executive director" for many years, to be an exceedingly kind-hearted person, very generous. Of course, there are strong expectations and forces encouraging conformity, and younger people especially may be sort of "submerged" by these forces. But that's light years away from being a brain-washing situation, except in the most metaphorical (and misleading IMO) sense.
chela2020 Registered User (12/13/02 1:47 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage psychdev, Thanks for giving your experience at Hidden Valley. After so much negative SRF stuff on this website, it is nice to know that it isn't all like what I have read. I do think that when you join a monastery by becoming a nun or a monk, there is a certain amount of conformity, as it should be. All societies have their own cultures and norms. The lay members have it much easier, and so not everyone is cut out to be a monk or a nun. I know that I would not last in any organization if I joined the ranks of the nuns, even though I would love to be a nun. I also think that we all have our own experiences and emotions to deal with in any organization, and what may seem okay to one person is not okay for another. For example, what one person considers abuse, another considers training and accepts it, and I am speaking of the way in with atthority figures in monasteries treat the monks or nuns by scolding them, etc.
X Insider Registered User (12/13/02 2:04 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Psych dev, As I was reading your post, I found myself feeling some annoyance and did a little old fashioned introspection/self-analysis to find out why. What I realized is that your post mirrors my own words of some years ago, before I moved in up at Mt. Washington. I think my annoyance at you is residual anger at myself -- "Why didn't I see it from the beginning?" But no matter how much my friends and family gently suggested I might be entering a cult, I could not admit it to myself until I could face the pain of starting life over again. There is so much testimony already on this site that I will not add anything. I almost envy those like you who can enjoy an environment like Hidden Valley and not get too sucked in to the "heart of darkness," as one monk put it. But then again, I am so happy to be free of religion that any envy is fleeting. It feels so good to be able to feel God naturally again, just as I am.
chrisparis Registered User (12/13/02 2:49 pm) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Psychdev, Hmmm. Scientology is still a cult, but it has no charismatic leader. As I said in my first on this issue, I think SRF at most could be considered "cult-like", but, no, I don't think it is a cult yet. As was pointed out earlier, many descriptions of what is, let's say, unpleasant about SRF could also be said about many monastic or conventual organizations. BUT, in such organizations, if you don't toe the party line, you are asked to leave. Cults don't usually work that way. They usually keep working on grinding down the individuality of the person until they conform.
chela2020 Registered User (12/14/02 4:46 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Chrisparis, I agree with so much of what you said, even that cults usually work on grinding down the individuality of the person, but some cults do ask you to leave. There is a big fear factor in thos groups. When they kick you out they shun you in the true sense of the word. And since they had spent so much time brainwashing you into the organization, you have come to agree that everyone outside of the organization is "evil" and are "wolves", and so you have a hard time adjusting after you have been kicked out. You are also told that only they will be saved, and so if they kick you out, you may feel that you have lost out. I was even told that I was dead in God's eyes as well as their's. The fear of being kicked out looms big in people's mind, but at the same time everyone thinks it won't happen to them. Not only do you lose your friends, but if your family members are in a cult, you lose them as well. They won't even speak to you unless you return. Also in that type of movement, they ask you to spy on each other, only they don't use those words. Much like how the Communist Party worked, I was asked to keep "an eye" on a member that had done something wrong, and to report back to them if I saw that she had done something wrong again. Another member, who cleaned the Kingdom Hall, saw notes from the visiting minister and learned that everything that we said to others that was not proper, that was questioning the organization, etc. was written down in these notes and sent to headquarters. And yet they kick you out but are still a cult. But I agree with everything else you said. SRF is not a cult. Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/28/03 5:05:06 am
KS Registered User (12/14/02 6:03 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage *Quote:* X Insider: I almost envy those like you who can enjoy an environment like Hidden Valley and not get too sucked in to the "heart of darkness," as one monk put it. But then again, I am so happy to be free of religion that any envy is fleeting. It feels so good to be able to feel God naturally again, just as I am. Exactly. I feel the same way. I feel a little stupid for being so sucked in for so many years but try to put it behind me. Being inside was a terrible experience but overall I think it was God and Guru showing me that I didn't need an (cruel) organization between them and myself. It took a hard blow to learn it. It does feel so much better now! I also remember back to the days of misdirected loyalty and see some of those on this board who are evidentally in that same position now. I hope they stay clear of serious involvement, they just might keep a little peace in their lives. Edited by: KS at: 12/14/02 6:06:16 am
username Registered User (12/14/02 8:12 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage SRF shuns people who leave. If you question the organization or speak favorably about Ananda you would also be excluded.
chela2020 Registered User (12/15/02 7:23 am) Reply	Re: Moral Courage Username, It is true that some in SRF will shun you, but not everyone. Some members lack understanding and so shun. But every organization that one joins has a purpose in our life, of teaching us things that we need to learn on the path, and so I can now treasure what I have learned from them all. Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/28/03 5:08:03 am

Page 1 2

<< Prev Topic | Next Topic >>

Email This To a Friend
Topic Control Image

Topic Commands

Click to receive email notification of replies

Click to stop receiving email notification of replies

jump to: