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dawnrays
Registered User
(12/23/03 7:32 am)
Reply 		Re: Digeroo, Nagchampa and Chela2020, please stand up....
What happened to the cherio?

You left mother center and you "live the U.S. now." Now, where does Australia come in?

I think you're confusing yourself with all of the id's!

Where did you hook up with Baba Hagen das? Was that in Australia?

Nagchampa and chela2020 are so blissfully happy with the "new gurus" that one or the other comes to the board most every day to slam their old one! You three have so much in common, you should "merge personalities" as they say in psychiatry.

Oh no dig! You weren't doing it PERSONALLY. Just standing up for somebody else's divine right to drag somebody through the mud.

I didn't think anybody could get any lower than YB, what an achievment for you!

I wonder what Baba thinks of all of this?

nagchampa2
Registered User
(12/23/03 7:32 am)
Reply 		Re: The Walrus Cult Talking Blues
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 1/1/04 9:32 pm
redpurusha
Registered User
(12/23/03 8:47 am)
Reply 		Re: The Walrus Cult
yb writes "The Walrus is an on-line cult community" and "Yogananda told you to claw out your eyes, you'd do it" then procedes to try to explain these idiotic statements. Signs of paranoia perhaps? Here a cult, there a cult, there all around us! This guy needs to slow down and relax. But there really is no room for an honest discussion without wild accusations of "lynching," "killing" and "clawing" being thrown in.

Most of the time he refers to himself in third person, and almost never answers or discusses issues with someone directly (well me at least). It's the equivalant of someone talking to you and not looking you in the eye. I don't care to talk with people like this.

Edited by: redpurusha at: 12/23/03 9:02 am
didgeridootoo
Registered User
(12/23/03 9:04 am)
Reply 		/
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: didgeridootoo at: 1/2/04 7:28 am
dawnrays
Registered User
(12/23/03 9:11 am)
Reply 		Chela2020, Nagchampa, Digeroo, please stand up....
I'm sorry Nagchampa, but you don't get off the hook for starting, vicious, gossipy threads and then deleting all of your posts (like chela2020).

No wonder you three have no time to meditate or for "organizations", you spend every waking moment supporting each others' ridiculous arguments and complementing each other's "poetry".

You have a nerve to call anybody vicious? Why don't you give us a break from your sick, split personality postings so we can raise the vibe to a higher level?

Oh, right on dig (I know it's all you but I will adress your pretend characters just for the sake of clarification), you met him at a Candy store! Now was that down under or just in your own mind?

Edited by: dawnrays at: 12/23/03 9:14 am
etzchaim
Registered User
(12/23/03 9:43 am)
Reply 		Re: The Walrus Cult Talking Blues
That's it! Our blatant display of humanity has been uncovered!

I can predict, Nagchampa, that you will continue to discover human elements within humanity everywhere you go, and once you turn your finger on yourself, you will find those same elements there. I see some visciousness here as well, and it ain't just from everyone but you, and yes, I'm viscious too, I won't be left out. In my opinion, which you really don't want, I'm sure, you are in the process of 'reacting against' SRF and Yogananda. You are blaming Yogananda, and the current organization, and some of that is definately legitimate, but you resist any attempt to find a balance with that and insist in a rather hardline argument that any use of siddhis delegitimizes a Guru. This is the product of a very right wing understanding of Yoga. If I guessed wrong on where your sympathies lie, then that was my mistake. That you cannot open yourself up to other perspectives, and resort to labeling even the Walrus a cult when people oppose your opinions, civilly or not, is rather key to understanding that you are reacting and not trying to look at the actual situation. From my perspective, you are able to see your side, and are saying some rather viscious things yourself, but you have not reached a healing point where you can see that there might be another valid perspective - we are talking about schools of Yoga here, not just individuals.

In India, the teachings are very diverse, more so than what we have in the U.S. During Yogananda's time, there was only him and Vedanta. You have obviously taken the Vedanta side, and have not been shy about stating that, until, of course, you delete your messages. Kriya, the techniques proper, are a form of Tantra. Shaivite Tantra. The rotation of energy is tantric, with small 't'. Lahiri Mahasya was a Shaivite. Read his biography. Whatever Babaji was, if he is indeed a "Nath", he is in line with Tantra. The Nath's are Shaivite, as far as I know. I could be wrong, but I'm too lazy at the moment to look it up. He intended to have the techniques mix with any tradition, and when the teaching is sound, they do mix quite well with any tradition.

There is far more room for diversity here than you would like, it seems. Yes, Yogananda was not perfect. He made some real serious mistakes, which is why he confided to Shelley that he was worried about his next incarnation on the earth plane. Does that make him a fraud? In whose opinion? Certainly not mine, and I have a right to argue it, just like you. I do think he presented himself with too much mythology, and I can clearly see that SRF evolved the way it did as the result of some of his tendencies, but I can't see the "total fraud" element going on here. I can't bring myself to judge like that. Criticize, yes. Cast judgment, no. Can you understand the difference?

I think it's far more important for people to extricate themselves from the current SRF problems than to worry about whether it's all Yogananda's fault or not, after all, I'm aware of some very positive offshoots from Yogananda. SRF is only one version of Yogananda's legacy. If the root was truly foul, then how could take anywhere?

Also, you are mistaking non-engagement for friendship. Most of life is really not quite so black and white as you seem to be making it, which is what my whole point is in the first place, aside from my opinion that you simply need to mellow out and not worry so much about things being exactly perfect. Things will never be exactly perfect. Part of moving toward enlightenment is to gain the ability to see the Ultimate (which isn't even in the dualist category's of "perfect" and "imperfect") within the very imperfections that plague us when we can only see from our limited human perspective.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 12/23/03 9:50 am
didgeridootoo
Registered User
(12/23/03 4:38 pm)
Reply 		/
(This message was left blank)

Edited by: didgeridootoo at: 1/2/04 7:29 am
username
Registered User
(12/23/03 5:19 pm)
Reply 		Re: nagchampa2's post
Hey there nagchampa2....
Well I'm sure glad I printed that out before you deleted it. So I have a question....who is sai id? This is the first time I have come across this name.

dawnrays
Registered User
(12/23/03 6:48 pm)
Reply 		Chela2020, Nagchampa and Dijeridu please stand up....
Cobber,

You certainly seem a little riled up for a first time poster "who's been reading the board for a month or so!"

Trying to organize a "mutiny" already?

Don't have a bone to pick with Yogananda or srf? You certainly seem to have one with everybody else!

Let's see, what would a person who's "guru" is a brand of ice cream, who has no "bone to pick" with Yogananda or srf, be doing on an srf message board, complaining about the srf Walrus "board".

Wow, sure sounds like a (very old and worn out) bone to pick to me!

Ooroo Dig, I mean Nagchampa, or was that Chela2020?

didgeridootoo
Registered User
(12/24/03 3:56 am)
Reply 		New SRF Message Board
I have been gone for a while and since coming back I find the Walrus has slowed down, and I learn that there is a new board called Cult Busters-SRF Division, in which people are more free to say what they desire about Yogananda. I suppose Walrus is just for those who have left SRF?

Edited by: didgeridootoo at: 3/1/04 11:45 am
dawnrays
Registered User
(12/24/03 5:28 am)
Reply 		Ooroo (again!) Chela2020
Had fun did we dij?

Has the story changed again? Now was that the Mother Center in California or the one in Australia? I thought your guru was a brand of ice cream, anyway because you were beyond gurus and "organization"? Funny, I was in srf many, many years and I never heard anybody refer to "the Walrus".

Thanks for clueing us in though! Don't worry, nobody ever gets "chased off the board" here. They just make a grand, tearful exit and return under a new handle (usually as they are on the losing side of their arguments, or being exposed as fibbers)! That is, if they are honest enough to only have been using one in the first place.

I'm sure you'll be back. When I hear that old, familiar whining about "my doubts" or that special brand of insane logic about that cad, Yogananda, I'll know it's you!

Ooroo and have a safe trip, Chela2020...



dawnrays
Registered User
(12/24/03 6:06 am)
Reply 		Re: Ooroo (again!) Chela2020
Wow, it occurs to me that you really like srf, and the only problem is the teachings, the techniques and of course, Yogananda?

Is this one of the options? Being pro srf but antimeditation (harmful to your health!) the teachings (untruths?) and of course, Yogananda (a first class cad!)

No, no, I just don't think that's one of the options... sort of like having all the fun and advantages of say, being a Catholic (but not believing in Christ.)

Unless you can convince them to find a guru that you approve of, that is! That's it! That's the problem! The organization is perfect, the guru, the meditation and the teachings are the problem...

I'd start my campaign right now...

YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(12/24/03 7:11 am)
Reply
I Me Mine
> Redpurusha wrote: "Most of the time he refers to himself in third person, and almost never answers or discusses issues with someone directly (well me at least). It's the equivalent of someone talking to you and not looking you in the eye. I don't care to talk with people like this."

Speaking about oneself in third person is a not so uncommon spiritual practice. It's done to avoid reinforcing the illusory aspects of the ego. Through this practice, one continually focuses on associating their consciousness with the Atman (consciousness underneath the personality) over the limiting factors of the personality.

No one has questioned this before, and I've never felt a need to explain it because people are pretty well spiritually educated here and recognize this practice. To use someone we all know -- if you visited Gandhi while he was on one of his days where he practiced the vow of silence, you might get insulted by him not answering you verbally. He would pen stuff down on paper to communicate during those days. You could say the same thing in this case:

"It's the equivalent of someone talking to you and not looking you in the eye. I don't care to talk with people like this." (Redpurusha)

You make me want to refer to you as RedChristian again because of how many Christians tend to be very unaccepting of other's spiritual practices. But I realize that you were simply not aware of why I do it. And in SRF, this practice is never used as far as I know. Yogananda's megalomania wouldn't allow him to disassociate from his ego in that way.

Also worth noting, people not looking you in the eye can be cultural. In some cultures, even with some minority groups in the US, not looking you in the eye while talking is considered respectful. Constantly trying to grab eye attention with people from these cultures can be interpreted as being aggressive.

I'll let George Harrison comment further on this issue of talking in third person with the lyrics to "I Me Mine":

-----------
All through the day, I me mine
I me mine, I me mine
All through the night, I me mine
I me mine, I me mine
Now they're frightened of leaving it
Everyone's weaving it
Coming on strong all the time
All through the day I me mine

I-I-me-me-mine, I-I-me-me-mine
I-I-me-me-mine, I-I-me-me-mine

All I can hear, I me mine
I me mine, I me mine
Even those tears, I me mine
I me mine, I me mine
No-one's frightened of playing it
Everyone's saying it
Flowing more freely than wine
All through the day I me mine

I-I-me-me mine, I-I-me-me mine
I-I-me-me mine, I-I-me-me mine
----------

> Dawnrays wrote: "Wow, it occurs to me that you really like srf"

YellowBeard is not sure if these comments are for him, but he'll respond to them anyway.

Yes, YellowBeard does like SRF. He says SRF is the people, and power to the people.

> "and the only problem is the teachings"

Yep.

> "the techniques and of course, Yogananda?"

Great, we're seeing eye to eye here. It's taken such a long time.

> "Is this one of the options?"

Yeah.

> "Being pro srf but antimeditation (harmful to your health!)"

The way they teach meditation (YellowBeard would say the way they abuse meditation), yes indeed.

> "the teachings (untruths?)"

You got it.

> "and of course, Yogananda (a first class cad!)"

'Cad', good description, YellowBeard thinks that that's appropriate.

> "No, no, I just don't think that's one of the options..."

Sure it is.

> "sort of like having all the fun and advantages of say, being a Catholic (but not believing in Christ.)"

Good call, if Catholics recognized that the Divine is within them just as much as it was within Jesus, we'd call this heaven on earth.

> "Unless you can convince them to find a guru that you approve of, that is!"

Nahh, no guru. We can do without that just fine. Faith in the Divine within ourselves, imagine that. Now we're talkin'.

> "That's it! That's the problem! The organization is perfect,"

Yes, the people are perfect.

> "the guru, the meditation and the teachings are the problem..."

Bingo. The people do not need a person or method to bring them unto the Divine. In fact, this only creates a "cat chasing its tail" effect.

> "I'd start my campaign right now..."

Starting it now. Dawnrays, you're not so bad after all. You've clarified this message of non-duality for us all. You may think YellowBeard is joking, but he's quite serious.

To switch gears here ...

> Redpurusha also wrote: "[YellowBeard] almost never answers or discusses issues with someone directly (well me at least).

YellowBeard has to respond to many, many people. He uses a lot of blanket statements to reach all the readers. A lot of times if he responds to one person and if the question of another person is basically addressed in that, he tends to do that instead of addressing everyone individually.

Punk Yogi
Registered User
(12/24/03 7:58 am)
Reply 		3rd Person
FYI Daya Mata refers to herself in third person.

So does Punk... no relation to the former

redpurusha
Registered User
(12/24/03 8:05 am)
Reply 		Re: I Me Mine
yb, if speaking in third person is your spiritual practice, then I respect that. I've never seen this type of practice, but now I understand. As far as looking people in the eye, the Gandhi example was not convincing because this was a day of silence for him, so if I were to approach him and try to break that silence -I would be the one being offensive and disrespectful. Personally, if I'm having a conversation with someone and they don't look me in the eye (I mean for a reasonable time not staring at me) then I feel disrespected and discontinue talking with that person. Message boards are another form of talking with someone, or a group of people. I've read the dialogues between you and Punk Yogi, these were mainly direct conversations. Yet he seems to have lost all interest in engaging in a conversation with you. Why am I not surprised? with your over-active imagination of everyone trying to lynch you or gauge your eyes out, fry you in a frying pan, push you down the stairs, and many other comments (ok I made some up for fun). On a final note I leave you with these words of wisdom -by Jesus of course.

"This is the greatest commandment: Love God with all your heart, mind, body, and stenght; and the second: love your neighbor as yourself."

Happy holidays everyone!

Edited by: redpurusha at: 12/24/03 8:13 am
dawnrays
Registered User
(12/24/03 8:15 am)
Reply 		Benefits of Study?
YB,

Can you just be a little more specific on what you mean by "the way they teach it" as far as meditation being "harmful to your health".

Many people meditate and it improves their health and does not harm it, can you just get a little more specific in some of your statements?

This also goes for the teachings. Is there some specific problem with them? Most of them are pretty timeless and old.

I also do not agree with the "heirachy" aspect of the guru/disciple relationship imposed on us or with srf in general. Is there ANY aspect of the guru/disciple relationship that you approve of? What attracted you? Don't you think some people may benefit and require a guru for at least a portion of thier lives? Haven't you had several teachers besides Yogananda? Did you recieve any benefits at all?

stermejo
Registered User
(12/24/03 2:06 pm)
Reply 		Re: 3rd Person
"Speaking about oneself in third person is a not so uncommon spiritual practice."

Call me clueless, your Majesty, but "spiritual practice?" Huh? It IS a recognized "literary technique," a.k.a,, referring to oneself in the Royal. Kings and Queens, looking down their noses, often spoke thusly, "WE are not amused, Sir knight. Our approval of your plan will not be forthcoming." Ever heard the expression, Hoidy, toidy? Haughty third person!

Ego killer? High and mighty is more like it. It would be humourous if used sparingly. The constant use is just annoying. Sigh, but then you are Divine, your majesty.

Not looking someone in the eye. That's another one? Geeze, where's MY crown? I think of that as a nasty habit I'm still trying to shake. I try to catch myself whenever possible and stop it. So, thanks for the reminder, really.

I can't speak for "other" cultures but I can tell you. Try it with someone you really love and you're libel to lose them outright, son. And that's a fact, Jack.

Go ahead, ask anyone you know if not looking them in the eye doesn't make one feel like you're not giving them your attention. That you're not somewhere else in mind while you're talking to them. You'll find that you have some "'splainin' to do."

My brother, I plead with you. STOP the madness. You are NOT MKG. These are "spiritual practices" you DO NOT need.

YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(12/25/03 5:59 am)
Reply
Re: Benefits of Study?
Merry Christmas folks ...

> Dawnrays write: "Can you just be a little more specific on what you mean by 'the way they teach it' as far as meditation being 'harmful to your health'."

Meditation works by altering your brain chemistry. This is delicate business. If you try to force something on yourself that isn't agreeing with you, you can run into problems, sometimes very serious ones. The brain is a delicate instrument and you need to respect it.

We're given rigid, very inflexible meditation techniques (Hong Sau, Aum, Kriya) in a "one size fits all" way. We're told that Kriya has come down to us from the Indian version of Santa Claus (aka Babaji). So we want to do whatever it takes to make it work for us because after all, it's from an Avatar, it has to work for us. You may not recognize this consciously, but trust me, it's in full swing subconsciously.

Yogananda learned about making things "sacred" from Yukteswar. You don't need to do much research to see this, it's clearly explained in Autobiography of a Yogi. Yukteswar would use "magic" pendants and stuff like that to give the person in need something to believe in to aid in the healing process.

Yogananda does this with Kriya. He spiced it up by attaching Kriya to the mythological Indian story of a man living in the Himalayas in a perpetual state of being approximately 25 years old. This adds that extra "magic" to Kriya. But doing this to a meditation practice is reckless. Meditation is an individual affair. Some types agree with some people, others do not. It's like having an allergy to something. What works for one will not work for everyone.

In the "SRF Teachings and Ideals" section under the "Are the Teachings Bad" thread, YellowBeard posted (12/22/03) a good article on the negative effects of meditation that many have experienced, so no need to bring up all that info here. The article was very unwelcomed because it's difficult for us to look at Kriya as "just another meditation technique". But the fact of the matter is, it is just another meditation technique. But this "magic" attached to it that's just been spoken on, is what closes peoples minds. They feel they need to keep it "sacred" by not allowing anyone to question it. Many here cannot admit that *some* people have and will experience problems with it. In the thread, YellowBeard mentioned a friend of the family that had an extremely negative reaction to Kriya. But no one could hear that because they need to protect that "magic" in it. This is why Yogananda was irresponsible in doing this "spiritual trick" with Kriya.

We need to question our spiritual tools. Trying to give them a "little extra kick" in this way makes people dogmatic and closed minded. We can't be closed minded when we mess with our brain chemistry -- it's far too delicate.

> Dawnrays: "This also goes for the teachings. Is there some specific problem with them? Most of them are pretty timeless and old."

Good, good. You see clearly that Yogananda did not "originate" these teachings and is therefor not a "messiah". He had extensive religious training. What he did with these teachings was to present and package them in his own way. He was very intelligent and charismatic, and did this in a very effective way, otherwise we would not all be here talking about him.

YellowBeard believes that Yogananda was not spiritually mature enough to really present these teachings in a truly useful way. He used crude spiritual "tricks" to try to teach these things which Yellowbeard does not feel Yogananda fully understood. He made the error of trying to wipe off blood with blood. He removed one attachment only to replace it with another.

> Dawnrays: "I also do not agree with the 'hierarchy' aspect of the guru/disciple relationship imposed on us or with srf in general."

Another of Yogananda's spiritual tricks that he recklessly used was the deification of the teacher to make the listener more receptive to the teachings, which unavoidably creates hierarchy. These spiritual tricks YellowBeard is speaking on can be useful for *some* people under the right circumstances. YellowBeard says Yogananda used these techniques recklessly because he applied these things on a mass scale thinking that they would work for everyone.

> Dawnrays: "Is there ANY aspect of the guru/disciple relationship that you approve of?"

The advice of a person of Self-realization can be very helpful. But how can you tell who is Self-realized? There's been threads discussing this on the board here. Most of the signs people use as a litmus test can be pretty easily faked, and if you're in the business of playing guru, you're better know how to. There's a lot of people out there that want to play this game, many fail, but the best artists rise to be Yoganandas.

There's a story from the Mt. Baldy Zen Center about a teacher there that was approached by a person that asked how they would know when they have found a true teacher. There's a lot of pine trees in the area. His response was to make the pine trees your teacher. This is a very good response because it shows that the Divine is in all things and it's just a matter of looking at things correctly that will allow one to see this. Also this response completely bypasses getting caught in the trap of spiritual hierarchy.

There's just way too many people out there just waiting to lead you. Once you bow your head, the second you lift it up, you'll find someone there more than willing to "save" you. The guru-disciple relationship is actually a childish endeavor. There's a difference between being innocent and naive. It's innocent to love a poisonous snake because it's a part of yourself as all things are (and it's good to), but it's naive to pet that snake and you may get hurt. Most people that play the roll of guru are predators. The most famous ones are the ones that have pulled it off the best, and are hence the most dangerous.

There's really no need for us to play this game. The Divine exists equally in us all. Now most here respond violently when YellowBeard says that. They're scared of what that really means. They want someone else to do their spiritual work for them. What's the saying -- 30% your effort, 70% the gurus? People like that, they want the easy road. But how often in life do truly good things result by taking the "easy" road?

> Dawnrays: "What attracted you?"

What Yellowbeard experienced, he found overwhelming. He plastered his face onto the floor in worship. It was too difficult to believe that Infinity was what his consciousness really was, and that we are all really the One same Self. Yogananda offered to take carry that burden. Truth became ideas and the world became dark. YellowBeard had to fight tooth and nail to get his realization back.

> Dawnrays: "Don't you think some people may benefit and require a guru for at least a portion of their lives?"

Mmmm, Yellowbeard does not like to recognize such things, but he thinks that this may be true.

> "Haven't you had several teachers besides Yogananda? Did you receive any benefits at all?"

Yellowbeard had his realizations when he knew very little about religion and spirituality. Being an atheist, he found Zen to be an interesting way to explore deeper aspects of himself. After having some realizations he got all excited and started looking into religion because the insights were ... well, "spiritual". And religion seemed to be the place where these things were dealt with.

But diving into religion proved to be a bad thing. Realities turned into ideas. The light faded within himself and disappeared. Yellowbeard feels that he has only received negative results through spiritual study. It was like having his meal taken away and given a menu instead. The meal was overwhelming for YellowBeard at first (being a starving peasant and all), so he wanted to look at a menu to help him approach his meal. The menu didn't seem to help. YellowBeard wishes he would have just dug his fork in and started eating.

Yellowbeard says that Truth does not need to be upheld or believed in. Ideas about it only seem to cover it up. Look at life with a clear, young mind. I doesn't matter if you're 95. All you need do is drop your ideas. Not just a few, but *all* of them. With nothing to cloud your vision, you see things as they are. The Truth is not to be feared, although it is very intense. It's the most amazing thing. It's Infinity, and that's what *you* are. All the silly games of flying saints means nothing when you see this.

> Punk Yogi wrote: "FYI Daya Mata refers to herself in third person."

Hmm, YellowBeard never really focused much on her teachings, I'll have to look more closely to see this.

> Stermejo: "It would be humourous if used sparingly"

And so would Kriya.

> Stermejo: "I can't speak for 'other' cultures but I can tell you. Try it with someone you really love and you're libel to lose them outright, son. And that's a fact, Jack."

Why would you assume that someone we would "really love" would not belong to one of these "other" cultures?

What YellowBeard was trying to say about what Redpurusha wrote on the disrespect of not looking people in the eye, is that it's not a universal truth, so to speak. It's just a part of our culture. YellowBeard never said that he didn't look people in the eye when speaking with them. Whether the practice is respectful or disrespectful, depends on where you are and who you're dealing with.

etzchaim
Registered User
(12/25/03 1:02 pm)
Reply 		Re: Benefits of Study?
"Meditation works by altering your brain chemistry. This is delicate business. If you try to force something on yourself that isn't agreeing with you, you
can run into problems, sometimes very serious ones. The brain is a delicate instrument and you need to respect it."

So in previous posts, you recommended drugs. While I'm not opposed to a good use of drugs, how in the world can you rationalize saying that meditation alters brain chemistry (which is also altered by the food we eat, so be careful there, as well...) and then tell people to use a drug with no guidance?

"Yogananda learned about making things "sacred" from Yukteswar. You don't need to do much research to see this, it's clearly explained in
Autobiography of a Yogi. Yukteswar would use "magic" pendants and stuff like that to give the person in need something to believe in to aid in the
healing process."

Do you have any knowledge of how talismans work? I suspect you think it is the placebo method. Would it occur to you that your rational approach might not cover this particular field? I've used magic squares and other workings in both Hinduism and Judaism. It's very odd how non-placebo-like they are. I suspect we would both agree that knowledge and care needs to be taken with this sort of thing, if you actually understood what was happening.


"Yogananda does this with Kriya. He spiced it up by attaching Kriya to the mythological Indian story of a man living in the Himalayas in a perpetual
state of being approximately 25 years old. This adds that extra "magic" to Kriya. But doing this to a meditation practice is reckless. Meditation is an
individual affair. Some types agree with some people, others do not. It's like having an allergy to something. What works for one will not work for
everyone"

This whole paragraph makes no sense, because it was Lahiri who brought his teacher into the mix. Or something like that. Babaji is a common title to refer to a great Yogi as, but Lahiri probably did have a Guru who was referred to by this title. Sri Yukteswar brings in this mysterious Guru as well, in his writing. Yogananda did not invent this connection.

Also, the issue with SRF and their meditation techniques appears to have to do with the organizations issues and the lack of healthy teaching going on, not the techniques. Techniques are tools. The can be used well or misused. My group doesn't have these issues and there is more guidance with the techniques and much more freedom and encouragement to personalize one's sadhana or go elsewhere, if that is what will awaken a person. The emphasis is on the teaching and the awakening of each person, not on the organization and Guru or current leaders.

The problem is not with Kriya techniques, or meditation techniques, but in the way it's presented in SRF. This is not the fault of Kriya, it's the fault of the current institution and perhaps with the way Yogananda set things up. My lineage and the Kriya groups in India were quite critical with putting what is essentially verbal teachings meant to be taught on an individual basis, into the lessons. We don't use the lessons, and this is a very foreign idea to the teaching of Yoga in India. Every persons enlightenment is their own, which I'm sure you will agree with, but the problem is not with the tools. It's SRF's approach and the worsening conditions within the organization - discussed all over this board - that has made it rigid, dehumanized, and far more problematic than it should be.

YellowBeard420
Slow Down
(12/26/03 7:56 am)
Reply
Re: Benefits of Study?
> Etzchaim wrote: "how in the world can you rationalize saying that meditation alters brain chemistry (which is also altered by the food we eat, so be careful there, as well...) and then tell people to use a drug with no guidance?"

Like all the members of the mint family (Lamiaceae), Salvia divinorum is an herb. I'm not calling it an herb to "clean up" its image. It's an herb under any and all scientific classification systems. Calling it a "drug" is like saying I'm recommending LSD, which I have not.

In my thread on this plant under "Talk is Cheap" in the "Not the Main Stream" section, I give all the information the reader needs right in the very first post to use this plant in a safe and responsible manner.

Using this plant is many times over a more safer approach than your Kriya Yoga. You use it once and then you find out right then and there if it agrees with you or not. Kriya, you can use for years not knowing exactly how it's affecting you.

You mentioned that the food we eat also alters our brain chemistry. This is true. If someone posted on a baking forum the possible harmful effects of using refined sugar -- I don't see how this would be such a problem. The readers can learn about the benefits of using dehydrated cane juice and other alternatives which might be appropriate for those experiencing problems with using refined sugar. It doesn't take up much space to offer this information, and people can and should offer counter arguments.

But the backlash here is disproportionate to the information I'm offering. Many people here do not want alternative choices presented. They want Kriya to stand unquestionable. To say that Kriya may pose problems for some people is viewed as blasphemy here. And I'm surprised that someone such as yourself Etz, would be on the vanguard of this movement. But it's like I said earlier in this thread, people love fascism when it upholds there own views.

> "Do you have any knowledge of how talismans work? I suspect you think it is the placebo method."

They do work by the placebo method, and Yogananda explains this in Autobiography of a Yogi. He didn't have a problem admitting this, I don't see why you should.

> "I've used magic squares and other workings in both Hinduism and Judaism."

There's a lot of David Copperfield's (for those not familiar with the name, he's a famous modern day magician) out there. If he could make the Statue of Liberty disappear, people can make these "magic squares" bark like a dog or whatever it is that they do.

Perhaps in simpler cultures that are distant from the modern world, these placebo type effects may be useful for some. But ultimately it's better to teach people how to deal with reality as it is, and not to try to make it up as we go along.

> "The emphasis is on the teaching and the awakening of each person, not on the organization and Guru or current leaders."

But we should be able to question the techniques as well. Many here have done Kriya for 30+ years and are exactly the same or worse than when they started. You seem to go with the standard reply -- you don't have enough faith, you're not doing it correctly, give me more money and I'll give you more attention so that you can do it more correctly.

> "This is not the fault of Kriya, it's the fault of the current institution and perhaps with the way Yogananda set things up."

Come on. These are just ways to justify why it hasn't worked. I posted earlier on this thread on how most people are going to go to their graves thinking that Kriya will one day save them. Why do this to yourself? What's the point?

Kriya Yoga served it's purpose, it made Yogananda rich and powerful and now he's passed on. But Kriya is still chewing up people's lives. Kriya has been passed on to other abusers such as your gurus and the SRF hierarchy. It's a money making scam just like L. Ron Hubbard's supposed self-help techniques that do nothing other than empty people's pockets and make them happy to do so.

Why end up a casualty of this? Sure it hurts to see all the time we've wasted and all the people we've hurt because of our cult involvement. But it just gets worse the longer we stay. You may say, Kriya is not doing anything visible now, but in my next life I'll be more spiritually advanced and born into an auspicious life. I say, well this is cute and all, but you need to see how this is just a common scam technique. Telling people things that can never really be questioned. It's like saying invisible elves live in our gardens. No one can disprove it, but that doesn't make it true. Growing up is painful, but it's just what we gotta do.

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