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Punk Yogi Registered User (1/26/04 3:06 pm) Reply	Shrinking in the Loyalty Tub I'm always wary about passing judgment about a peoples' subjective experiences. So, like you Nagchampa, I tend to make some space for those who feel they need to look to a guru figure for comfort. As I've discussed on the temperament threads, we are not all wired the same way. As unbelievable as it is to my sensibilities, some people are willing to follow no matter if the person they follow is of dubious character. But, then again they are probably also the types to continue a relationship with an abusive relative merely to honor the idea of having a relationship. To me that smacks of denial. It is as if they fear that dismantling their projections might bring on some type of uncontrollable domino effect in the breakdown of their psyche. That could very well be true. But the other alternative is an utter shrinking of the awareness (through the practice of denial). To shrink one's awareness is the diametric opposite of Self-realization. I'd like you all to ponder this quote by Dr. Nathaniel Branden from his book "The Art of Living Consciously": *Quote:* "To disown means to cease to recognize as our own. We can be alienated from -- inadequately conscious of --- our bodies, our needs and wants, our feelings and emotions, our actions and reactions, our thoughts and values, or our abilities and capacities. We can be strangers to ourselves in many different possible respects. We can act without recognizing the roots of our actions. We can be afraid without knowing what we are afraid of and long without knowing what we long for. These are some of the meanings of self-alienation and self-disowning. " "A consequence of this process is that we radically restrict our sense of self. We have less access to our inner signals, and consequently we become more dependent on signals from others. We may need others to tell us what to think, how to live, when to express which emotion (if at all), what is right or wrong, and so forth." "At minimum, we pay a price in suffering, when we are inappropriate in our responses and frustrated in our life. But sometimes we pay even a worse price, as when, for instance -- 'What stress are you talking about?' asks a driven, workaholic salesman of forty-eight a moment before he drops dead of a heart attack." And when I mentioned that SRF has opted for a Soviet Style of communication, I forgot to include a revealing quote also by Dr. Nathaniel Branden. Here it is: *Quote:* "The practice of living conciously entails an openness to evidence that might suggest an error in one's thinking -- and a willingness to correct such an error. It is the opposite of self-defensive mental rigidity. DEFENSIVENESS IS UNCONSCIOUSNESS PROTECTING ITSELF. IF WE ARE INVESTED IN THE FALLACIOUS NOTION THAT WE MUST NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE OR THAT IT IS A REFLECTION ON OUR WORTH TO ADMIT AN ERROR, THEN WE ARE DRIVEN TO SHRINK OUR AWARENESS -- TO INDUCE BLINDNESS. Living consciously (and authentic self-esteem) require eagerness to discover one's errors and candor about admitting them. The underlying premise of this attitude is: I do not treat reality as an antagonist." That line "defensiveness is unconsiousness protecting itself" really grabbed me the first time I read it. Sometimes in life we come across something which disrupts the confidence in our illusions. For me it was these two quotes. Edited by: Punk Yogi at: 1/26/04 3:34 pm
chuckle chela Registered User (1/26/04 3:34 pm) Reply	Re: ...and the beat goes on Well, the Walrus has changed a bit . . . que sera. FWIW (and it ain't worth much) I agree with Etz that the Walrus isn't meeting my needs much anymore. Round and round and round does get boring for me, but that's just me perhaps. Like Borg, I came to the Walrus with SRF issues, not so much PY issues, although I'm willing to recognize the inseparability of both to some degree. I have to agree with Borg that if I was going to get anything out of all these discussions about Yogananda, I'd need more substantive evidence. I know that will sound like a cop-out to some, but most institutions in our society require better evidence than we have here before making definitive decisions. I realize that chela2020 is limited by her resources, but I wish she could come up with more specifics. While I'm willing to applaud YB in his efforts at unmasking parlor tricks (and he may be onto something here), I suspect he'll only be able to go so far (but I'm willing to be proven wrong). Go for it, YB, but be damned sure you get specifics on Yogananda, not just all the allegations we've been treated to thus far. One of the challenges for anyone is going to be the limited amounts of hard evidence available today. One challenge is that SRF probably has by far more real data than anyone else. Good luck to any who want hard answers. In the end, my guess (FWIW) is that Etz will have been right all along: Yogananda, like everyone else, was a complex human being who had his good qualities and his not so good qualities. I suspect there will no definitive statement that he was all good or all bad. It will then be up for each person to decide what his worth is. The same applies to his teachings, and, indeed, to SRF as a whole. A few additional bits. Chela2020, that was a great reply to kolorado! LOL. We could use a bit more humor around here: let's not take ourselves quite so seriously, huh? I realize the issues are VITALLY IMPORTANT to many, but, sheesh, the sun is going to come up in the morning, the birds will still twitter in the trees . . . life will go on. How 'bout we all just treat each other a bit nicer, and try to avoid all these categorical remarks. It has been sounding a bit like that Monty Python skit, "The Argument," around here lately: "I'm right." "No, you're not." "Yes, I am!" "No, you are not!" "I most certainly am!" "You most certainly aren't" "Am!" "Aren't!" . . . . If we can get a few more specifics this might be useful (e.g., the stuff about mind reading in the Lessons; the trial transcripts from the Dhirananda trial; specifics on what PY did with siddhis to someone dear to chela (who, what, where, when, why)). I find it a bit odd, chela, that you're suggesting we can can email someone for some specifics: you can't post the specifics here but someone is willing to send them via email to people they don't know?? Doesn't make much sense, and I can't see how an email is going to be that much more substantive. Anyway, if anyone gets any info, please post it here for everyone WITH specifics, please. If info comes without specifics, please don't waste our time. I'm finding all the back and forth quite boring and tedious. So, once you guys have all your good evidence in place could someone post a summary post or two (maybe start a new thread called "The Weight of Evidence For and Against Yogananda") outlining all the info and specifics, good or bad, in the case of Yogananda. The rest of us, good jurors that we are, can then decide for ourselves whether to boot PY in the bum, fall at his feet in gratitude, do something in between those two extremes, or just forget the whole thing. Thanks. As far as predictions, the title of the book Ananda published was "The Road Ahead." It came out in the 70s. I never read it but good friends of mine did. I recall that it predicted a third world war by the end of the 20th century or thereabouts, and that millions of Chinese would die and that after all kinds of wars, famines, financial depressions, etc. India and America would emerge as the leaders of the world. The book apparently contained all kinds of specifics and most were said to come from Yogananda. Others may be able to provide more info about that booklet. My friends who read it were totally freaked, one or two going so far as to leave the city and go out into the country to prepare for bad times. Back in the 70s a number of SRF members got caught up in worrying about a pending collapse of the world economy, wars, etc.(that's a whole subject unto itself). SRF published PY's talk "World Crisis" in the 1975 spring issue of the Self-Realization magazine. Most people thought it referred to a pending major change in the world economy, etc. that was due to emerge in the late 20th century. I never subscribed to those theories. I always thought PY was referring to the influence of WWII and the economic system of the time (since the talk was given in 1940, and you have to remember that in 1940 the world was in one of the darkest periods of WWII with the fall of England and the rest of Europe looking like a fait accompli. This talk is also worth reading if one wishes to understand a bit of PY's political thinking. Some insist PY was a Republican; although he was a staunch supporter of free enterprise and less taxation, he was in other respects a most unusual Republican. He seems to me much more middle-of-the-road, regardless of what party he might have supported), and that he thought it would have major ramifications for the world economy and future in the 40s and 50s. I thought he was addressing his present audience, not people 25 or more years in the future. I also thought that it turned out that PY had been wrong in some of his predictions since the world of the late 40s and 50s didn't turn out the way he thought it would. No big deal for me. SRF ministers, though, had to spend time explaining to people that no one knew what was going to happen, and SRF certainly didn't sanction "The Road Ahead"; indeed, the BOD and ministers made a point of repeatedly saying that the book misrepresented Yogananda's thoughts. Bro. Bhaktanada was one minister who seemed to make a point of saying that hard times were coming, but he always emphasized that no one knew when, or what would happen, and that, free will being what it was, anything could change. That's about all I know. A final word for Etzchaim. Of all of us here currently, you are the one I find the most delightful. You're as human as can be, and honest and up front about it. You take sides, weigh things, change your mind, express your emotions openly, passionately blaze away with your keyboard and yet take time to offer words of respect and kindness to everyone. Hugs and kisses.
chuckle chela Registered User (1/26/04 3:40 pm) Reply	Re: Shrinking in the Loyalty Tub Punk, great points in your last two posts, which I just saw. The two issues you raise in your last post are vital: first, each person has to recognize if they are driven by what some psychologists call an external or internal locus of control (reference to others or oneself) and then decide if that's how they want to live. Second, if we're not willing to accept that WE are capable of making mistakes . . . all hell breaks loose eventually. Awareness.
nagchampa2 Registered User (1/26/04 4:45 pm) Reply	Re: ...and the beat goes on Chuckle Chela Wrote: "In the end, my guess (FWIW) is that Etz will have been right all along: Yogananda, like everyone else, was a complex human being who had his good qualities and his not so good qualities. I suspect there will no definitive statement that he was all good or all bad. It will then be up for each person to decide what his worth is". I agree with you. And it will then be up for each person to decide what his worth is--to them. Everyone is different as to what they expect from a guru or even an organization. I think the e-mailing that your are referring to is that I expect to get the court case between Dhirananda and Yogananda via e-mail and will e-mail it to others. I will post it on Walrus. I will be given the court case number. Punk Yogi wrote: "As unbelievable as it is to my sensibilities, some people are willing to follow no matter if the person they follow is of dubious character. But, then again they are probably also the types to continue a relationship with an abusive relative merely to honor the idea of having a relationship. To me that smacks of denial. It is as if they fear that dismantling their projections might bring on some type of uncontrollable domino effect in the breakdown of their psyche". I have to agree with you here, but like you said, we all have different temperments, and so maybe that is where a person needs to be at the time in order to learn whatever it is that they need to learn. Edited by: nagchampa2 at: 1/26/04 4:49 pm
kolorado22 Registered User (1/26/04 5:56 pm) Reply	Re: Taking Kolorado's Advice chela2020: I am glad to hear that you have a husband and friends. Perhaps in time you will calm down a little and gather some real evidence for your claims against PY. So far you have presented nothing of any significance as far as Borg and I can tell, and quite a few others that have emailed me. But I have already posted enough here, my original intent was 2 or 3 posts only. As far as I am concerned you can continue to post whatever your "confidential voices" tell you, I don't think that any that read the whole thread will take take your accusations seriously. As far as SRF is concerned, I have had no faith in the organization since 1980 or so, for reasons already itemized on this board. Further, Daya Ma now (based on the testimony of many here) does not even resemble the person I knew in 1978. The insight that I have gained from reading your posts has been enlightening to me. I can see clearly how a devotee with a disturbed consciousness can be programed by her friends (your psychic buddies) and other SRF dropouts into thinking that SRF is actually out to poison minds and destroy people. Of course your friends might actually be voices you hear in your own head (or is that the supermarket?), I'm not sure. At any rate, it would only take a few individuals like yourself , with the aid of some attorneys, to make real problems for SRF. After all, this is the "Golden State of Irresponsible Litigation" also known as California. Why not blame the "voices" you hear as well as your propensity to change aliases (nag and voice in the supermarket being several) and your tendency to delete posts inexplicably on SRF? Kriya must have been at fault here. (Just how long did you practice anyway?) If not Kriya, then the social snubs you suffered at the temple would surely qualify as a form of cruel harrassment. All in all, why not generate a class action suit against SRF, complete with infant plantiffs whose birth defects were caused by their mother's "exposure" to Kriya? Yes I can see how this has probably played out in parlours across Los Angeles. How much litigation of this sort is already pending, how many bribes has SRF had to pay to keep folks like you at bay? I am frankly surprised that SRF can function at all with the constant drone of such legal battles in the background. And now I see what this pressure has done to them and why they are so paranoid and fearful of change or dissent. Well, time to move on. The next time I sit to meditate on the Ashram grounds or the temple I will thank Master that these places still exist and have not been taken apart, board by board to keep you vampires at bay. Ciao
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/26/04 6:02 pm) Reply	Borg108 has been complimented I agree with Borg108's criticism of Amma in "Ammachi Inc." His information comes from a source that I turned him on to. Yet we have never seen that source's documents, we just trust him implicitly There are two sides and much good to Amma as well. Witness her hugging and healing/inspiriing 37,000 people on a recent day/night in Pondicherry. ***WHAT is interesting is in Punk Yogi, several posts above, writing: [Borg108 is complimented by Punk Yogi] Quote:** I'm disciplining myself to be as neutral as possible about the verdict on Yogananda. I think all sides are presenting some valid points. For example, I support Borg in his demand for rock hard evidence. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ So Borg108 and Punk Yogi, until Borg108 shows his documentations for his critique of Ammachi Inc.--- chela2020 is just as ok critiquing Yogananda Inc.!! or to put it another way why does Borg108 call for documention from chela2020, and apply a double-standard is Borg108 half as big a hypocric as me he expects chela2020 to do-- what he says not what he does i see the day soon coming when Dave/soulcircle/rachelcorrie, our in-house Hypocritical Guru has every one following his irresisitable moronish behavior C'MON!! Where is there anything of value in any opinion i have ever offered. On days that I don't add a post, I am so relieved not to have submitted more pure garbage onto an otherwise good site ; ) Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/26/04 6:10 pm
redpurusha Registered User (1/26/04 9:01 pm) Reply	Re: Shrinking in the Loyalty Tub Possible theory: Could it be that Yogananda was born into his latest incarnation as a highly advanced soul, yet only was able to attain the highest state some couple of years before his exit? Someone here somewhere posted this idea that he only attained the nirkiva samadhi (highest state of realization) about 4 years before his death. If this is the case, and if he did make some mistakes (Spirit didn't completely and perfectly express itself through him until his full Self-realization), then this would be a logical explanation for those mistakes. In God Talks With Arjuna (which he is the author without Dhirananda's help on this one), he speaks of the timeless battle of the soul to take back the bodily kingdom from king ego. Would it make some sense, that if he was commissioned by God to once and for all accurately interpret and explain the Gita, then it would be by someone who has fought this battle, and through example and struggle (in the life as Yogananda including "Years in my Master's Hermitage"), show that it is possible to realize God and find God's kingdom as advised by Jesus Christ and the saints from India? There is rumor that he was in fact Arjuna himself in a previous life (among other people), but this can only be accepted as speculation. Of course if true, then that would support his story even more, but we can't be sure of this. I've had very limited contact with SRF (the org), and never met PY in person, but like most people here I recognize the problems with SRF. However, my reverence for Yogananda is high, largely because of the overhwhelming evidence presented (in historical documentation and first-hand accounts) about his character. The most crystal-clear dream I've had was of Yogananda, a very serious look with his eyes staring right at me. Besides that he has inspired me to seek discovery of the Self, in ways I can only describe as miraculous. If people here think he had serious problems and was making errors, then what about the problems and issues with the rest of us? The point can be made that he claimed to be a guru and therefore he bears acountability for all his actions being error-free. We are allowed to make all the mistakes and have as big egos as we want, but he is not allowed. But he became a world guru (recognized the world over) only sometime around his departure or after it (after 1952), not before. He was like a world guru in progress until then. The fact that he was able to fight the battle (with maya) and be vicorious in the end, all the time living in the world, traveling all over, lecturing and writing, meeting with thousands of people, is even more impressive. I see some of you are preparing to really take up the task of analyzing all his possible faults and mistakes. Go ahead, let the truth reveal itself. SRF has mishandled his teachings in my opinion, I'm not convinced of any serious wrong-doings (he stopped his pulse to dazzle a crowd, played with a salt-shaker, even if these are true -come'on- yeh he was a real clown and trickster everywhere he went), although I did hear him make a gramatical error in saying "take an american baby and place it in an american home" when he actually meant to place it in an Indian home -in making a point about environment influencing us. For argument's sake, say he did have all these siddhis and was in position to take advantage of anyone he met, why didn't he just go the casino, win millions, and spend his whole life pimpin' nuns and living the material life to the max, instead trying to collect some small donations for his lessons and lectures? And don't give me the reply that he did drive around in a big cadillac and wore a watch. After all he could fly and knows the time of the day with his pefected intuition. Technically God is the author if Spirit did in fact express itself completely through PY. But for practical reasons PY is credited for it.
Borg108 Registered User (1/26/04 10:04 pm) Reply	Re: ...the truth shall set you free dave/soulcircle/rachael, Some of what I presented in Ammachi Inc came from my own personal experiences with her and her organization. Other parts came from the source you mentioned. However, before making serious accusations about a highly regarded Guru, I got a hold of a copy of our common friend�s supporting documents, including the AIMS financial statements and his interview notes. You can verify this with him if you wish (which is what you should have done prior to making unfounded accusations). . It is false accusations like yours, neg/chela and YB�s all over the board now that go to the heart of the problem. Punk Yogi has said he doesn�t agree with me that people should drop an argument merely because they don�t have the evidence. This is not what I said or what I believe. Argument and exploration of the issues are far different from reporting innuendo, rumor and unsubstantiated speculation as fact. When YB came onto the board, he immediately proclaimed that Yogananda was a fraud and the teachings were false, while showing from his postings that he had little familiarity or experience with them. How can anyone take him seriously when no evidence has been presented? When nag/chela began her recent tirade, she started out implying that Yogananda was the father of Tara Mata�s child. Even though that has been shown here to be impossible, she still insists that there is �evidence that Yogananda slept with women disciples�. YB has said that he �shagged any female devotee he could get his hands on.� These are very serious accusations that malign a person�s character and should not be made lightly. Where is the evidence? Dhirananda and Nerode both wrote books after leaving Yogananda. That would have been a good opportunity for them to expose such things, but nothing was ever mentioned. Now, 75 years later, there are only unsubstantiated rumors and innuendos. Nag/chela thanked YB for introducing �evidence� to support her accusations. What was this evidence? It was an excerpt from a National Enquirer type tabloid that presented the same accusations again without any evidence or substantiation. I guess the logic here is that if enough people make the same unfounded accusations, then they gain credibility. That�s like saying many people in nazi Germany believed the jews were evil and should be killed, therefore it must have been true, and the jews should have been killed As nag/chela knows, I�m not opposed to learning the truth wherever it may take us. She was in regular email contact with me telling me about her experiences digging for info on Yogananda. We all know that SRF sanitizes history and is not very forthright with the full story of things, so I was interested in where her journeys might lead. But presenting opinion as fact and speculation as truth just isn�t right. So far, she has presented only one reference specific enough to be checked out. This is the book Kriya: Finding The Truth by Swami Satyeswarananada Giri. In it there is a reference to sammohan bidya, which Swamiji defines as hypnosis. The following appears on page 177 of the book, �With the will power, he [Yogananda] had cured many people to the last day of his life. In this connection one day laughingly he said, �I would imagine in boyhood to be a doctor and serve patients. By the Lord�s grace, my desire has been fulfilled in this way.� Yogananda Sanga by Swami Satyananda, P.37 (So Yogananda was trying to fulfill his desire to be a doctor using sammohan bidya, or hypnotism.)� But isn�t this siddhi being used to heal or serve others, which nag/chela says is alright after all? Maybe the siddhi Yogananda was supposed to have used on nag/chela�s guru friend was also designed to serve or heal him. I guess we�ll never know. The so-called plagiarism issue is also addressed on pages 172-3 of Satyeswarananda�s book: �On the ship on his return journey [from Japan], Yogananda met an American couple too. Yogananda and the couple had spiritual discussions on many occasions. They were very pleased to hear that Ananda Brahma, �the eternal bliss�, is the greatest religion and idealism of mankind, and Kriya Yoga is the right discipline to achieve that goal. The American couple requested him to write down what they had discussed; they also invited Yogananda to the USA. These very discussions between Yogananda and the American couple became the draft of his title, Science of Religion. Having returned to India, he asked Swami Dhirananda, M.A. at that time to rewrite the book. Swami Satyananda and Tulasi Narayan Bose assisted in the project.� Then there is reference to this subject by Kriyananda in the link that nag/chela provided: �I learned a little more about Dhirananda's role in authoring The Science of Religion during four years that I spent in India in the early 1960s. There I had occasion to speak with Swami Satyananda, another of the Master's early companions. Satyananda told me, "After Yoganandaji's return from his visit to Japan, which he describes in Autobiography of a Yogi, he was inspired with insight on how to reach a worldwide public with the message God had given him. Accordingly, he wrote an outline of those ideas in Bengali. He didn't yet feel capable of writing them in English, however, so he asked Swami Dhirananda, a member of our little group, to write them in English as a booklet. Dhirananda, in other words, was the ghostwriter; the truths expressed were all Yogananda's. A human being is not the clothes he wears, but the living person inside them. The inspiration for The Science of Religion, similarly, was Yogananda's; Dhirananda only tailored the suit. � The sad truth is, Dhirananda, some years after arriving in America, betrayed his guru. Ambition, and consequent envy, are unfortunately not unheard of among the disciples of great masters. (Consider Judas Iscariot's historic betrayal of Jesus Christ.) When a disciple gives precedence to his ego over his discipleship, he sometimes attacks his guru as if saying, "All that I've gained has been by my efforts. I alone, therefore, deserve all the credit." The enlightened teacher meanwhile, himself free from all ego-prompted desires, views ingratitude even in its extremest form of treachery as a spiritual disease, which he must eventually cure in his erring disciples.� Still doesn�t sound like plagiarism to me. This senseless Guru bashing reminds me of one time in India when I came across a Vedanta swami who asked me what path I followed. After I told him, his eyes grew wide, his nostrils flared, and he shouted that I didn�t know what real sadhana was. He said I might have heard that there are many paths up the mountain, but that this was false. Only he could teach me how to really do sadhana. I just smiled and walked away. Soon I�ll be doing that again... Edited by: Borg108 at: 1/27/04 6:22 pm
A voice in the supermarket Registered User (1/27/04 5:38 am) Reply	Re: Taking Kolorado's Advice Ahem, Kolorado. I should be specific: I am not Chela (Nag). God bless her. Lots of what she sees into is interesting. As Punk Yogi says, in the PROCESS of searching for as hard facts and estimates that we can come up with, alternative thinking (alternative hypotheses) can be real help. On a ladder, different people are on different rungs. Their needs (including needs for evidence, and levels of sophistication), can differ. A DISCUSSION FORUM like this should adjust to that - I would say it goes without saying. And, as Punk Yogi also suggests, a thing can very well be true even though it is not documented. So we cannot be sure that a theory or idea is wrong unless we have evidence. This granted, there can be quite much to keep unsettled, in suspense. I have collected a lot of teachings by Yogananda and Jesus on a certain page. The compared material shows Yogananda is at variance with the only sources we know of of "original Christianity" in quite significant places. They concern the ideas we have of God the Father most likely, and definitely the Holy Spirit and what Christ is - the soul too. YOU ASKED FOR EVIDENCE? Look on this page and stop harassing those who have not had the time to delve into the complex material - yet, at any rate. oaks.nvg.org/yogananda-teachings.html As I mentioned on "Cultbusters - SRF Division" only yesterday, disappointments tend to come in a discussion forum - it is one of the side effects of the "game", I should say: It happens to many. pub177.ezboard.com/fcultb...D=13.topic "This Board - There Are Possibilities". Aloha all, Voice Edited by: A voice in the supermarket at: 1/27/04 6:17 am
chela2020 Slow Down (1/27/04 5:51 am) Reply	Re: Taking Kolorado's Advice Voice, Kolorado is more than likely none other than Dawnrays, who comes to the board saying wonderful spiritual things, (and I should talk), and then when she sees things that are negative about her guru, she begins attacking, and the attacks get worse and worse until she accuses you of being someone else, which I was, as Nag/Chela. So, if this is true, which others have already suspected and e-mailed me about, it would do no good to continue trying to reason with her. I just ignore her now that I know who it is. Thank you Voice for that information. I will read it later when I get home. I looked at the web site mentioned briefly, especially in regards to the trinity being the same as Om Tat Sat. I know after leaving SRF and finding out the real Hindu explaination of that, they are nothing alike. He was doing whatever he could to turn Christianity into Hinduism. Even the trinity was not taught until later years in Christianity. A lot of his comparisons are wrong, but after learning these things, I just decided to forget it all. But it is true that some of Christ's teachings are like Buddhist and Hindu teachings, but very little. The Sermon on the Mount for example have truths that are in all religions. Whoever posted the information on the predictions booklet, thank you. It saves me the energy from continuing to find it. Borg: I don't have time today to say much, as I am leaving here in a little while. Interesting what the Vedanta swami said to you. I guess Yogananda is not thought much of in India, at least not by some. But of course, I don't know what organization, if any, he is in, since Vedanta is just teachings. As we all know there is a Vedanta Society here in America, which is what I feel you are referring to, but just try to get anything out of a swami there, one way or another. They will not speak against Yoganada, and if you think I am wrong, ask them. As for my e-mailing you asking for dirt on Yogananda, that is not true, and you know it. We were comrads against anyone on this board who was putting him down. You loved him, and I was not going to bring up my doubts to you. When I posted what I did, you quit writing to me. End of story. Edited by: chela2020 at: 1/27/04 6:22 am
etzchaim Registered User (1/27/04 6:01 am) Reply	Re: Taking Kolorado's Advice I know Dawnrays. Kolorado is not Dawnrays. Sorry. I think there is trust issue going on. There is a certain point where, in my opinion, we all have to agree to disagree. We don't have to, of course, but then we argue in futile circles, saying, let us say, dredging, the same stuff up, over and over again. I agree with a little bit of what everyone is saying here, on both sides. I honestly don't think that there is any definate 'proof' for either side (as far as the extreme opinions go). While it is damaging to 'sweep' the reality 'under the rug' (thanks to Punky's ma for that one!), it is also damaging to continuously repeat spurious and ugly information. Neither of these approaches are good for those who wish to remain Yogananda's devotees, (or at least hold onto the very possible notion that he was not a complete scumbag...) or for those who wish to continue sweeping problems under the rug or repeating gossip and far-fetched inuendo. We could have a serious discussion here, but right now it is just going in futile circles. Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/27/04 6:19 am
A voice in the supermarket Registered User (1/27/04 11:38 am) Reply	Re: The Walrus Cult Aloha, Yellowbeard! I have started to glance through this long string of many parts and come halfway through the second part of it - many parts to go - and see that the SRF Walrus Committee has restricted your right of speech, so to speak. And I agree with YOU, like xmonk and others. Frankly, a similar thing happened to me too. Very murky "soulcirle" bravado writings for a seeming "inner circle" on the board got me all wrong a year and a half ago and feared a hostile take-over. That was AFTER he had welcomed me a whole lot, and let an option open for walking nude in a summer camp also, just to invite me there. I declined, saying that wearing clothes had to be tackled too - something like that. Since then his writings my way changed. It was not all from out of the blue, as I didn't really write that much - mainly some sum-ups of strings to clarify a few issues, really. The bravado guy, however, saw it fit to warn and accuse instead of going for evidence, and as a result I don't care about his or her feelings now, frankly. I confess that. And the many postings that were rudely deleted by the Walrus because "the watchdogs" barked he should do it - I have saved copies, as luck would have it. NEGATIVITY IS A PART OF THE WALRUS I sensed dark hostility and negativity in the Walrus board even before I posted anything. That's what sensitivity should do to you! And I heartily agree that something cultish is going on. I think I have detected a Game, a psychological hanky-panky among some of the contributors, that is. WHAT TA GAME COULD BE HERE? "Holy Molly" over all this whining and wailing! It could manifest as one more suspected Game. Can I prove it? Not today, at any rate. I have posted my latest hunches on the growing "Cultbusters, SRF division", as I see it can have a good future. pub177.ezboard.com/fcultb...D=13.topic To resume a thread of thought: "Soulcircle" seems to have implemented that postings from me were not to be read. and yes, I was clearly saying that Yogananda was to blame for some things, I too - They can't take it! When I now enter without knowing a fig about some of the contestants, I note that Dawnray is violent, and a terrible accuser on this string with that "devotional attitude" - that is freaky! I have further noted that redpurusha wants or needs to "dictate" other what to do (part 1, still), and branding some of Yellowbeard's statements as "idiotic" and as "wild accusations", ending one posting with "I don't care to talk with people like this". I do not fear it, but it could be that "adapted sluggers" seem to be served by the Walrus board, handicapping it as they walk rudely along. THAT was the idea I wanted to put across today. ---------------- No one who has not renounced his desire (including the desire to be a yogi as well) can ever become a yogi. [Cf. The Bhagavad Gita 6.2] ---------------- Think of that, all of ye - Edited by: A voice in the supermarket at: 1/27/04 11:41 am
YellowBeard420 Slow Down (1/27/04 12:24 pm) Reply	Re: The Walrus Cult > Punk Yogi wrote: "I didn't write the Guru Buster's article, only posted it." Sorry about that, that's at least the second time I've used poor wording in this area -- "Punk's article", "Punk's temperament studies". > Nagchampa2 wrote: "Some people can love a guru no matter what they have heard about him or even know to be true about him, and they stay with that guru. I couldn't, and it sounded to me as if there were others on this board who couldn't either. For them, I mainly want to say, even if you have doubts, you can safely leave and not be punished for lifetimes. If they doubt that statement, they can ask various gurus from the different organizations." Important point. One reason people vigorously try to keep the guru's image spotless (like SRF) is because they associate their spiritual life with him directly. But this is far from true. Each person's spiritual life is their own and not dependent on another. Even if one's path is pure bhakti, it's important to recognize the difference between codependency and devotion. There is a difference. One way is a healthy expression, the other is not. Whatever path we choose, it's like "walking the razor's edge". Don't think that bhakti is the easy way out. > Punk Yogi: "As unbelievable as it is to my sensibilities, some people are willing to follow no matter if the person they follow is of dubious character. But, then again they are probably also the types to continue a relationship with an abusive relative merely to honor the idea of having a relationship. To me that smacks of denial. It is as if they fear that dismantling their projections might bring on some type of uncontrollable domino effect in the breakdown of their psyche." Good observation here. This is another side to it as well. The whole post was really good, I'd cut and paste the whole thing, but that'd be redundant. > Redpurusha wrote: "Someone here somewhere posted this idea that he only attained the nirkiva samadhi (highest state of realization) about 4 years before his death." Yogananda's statement was something like, "I will be in Nivikalpa Samadhi, but no one will no it." I'm in Nivikalpa Samadhi too, you guys just don't know it. It's an absurd statement when you really think about it. I'm a millionaire, you guys just don't know it. Give me all the attention that a millionaire gets, but I don't have to offer any evidence to the fact. He had enough stress going on to have a heart-attack, so I doubt that he was in any kind of state of Samadhi any time near when he died. Just my opinion. Sorry, it's just that that statement has been coming up a lot and had been disturbing me. Needed to make a comment. > Redpurusha: "In God Talks With Arjuna (which he is the author without Dhirananda's help on this one" I think SRF wrote most of it. As I understand it, his commentaries weren't anywhere as near as long as what we see in that 2 volume set. Someone can correct me here if I'm wrong. > Redpurusha: "There is rumor that he was in fact Arjuna himself in a previous life" Arjuna is a fictional character in the Mahabharata, so this would be quite impossible. > Borg108 wrote: "When YB came onto the board, he immediately proclaimed that Yogananda was a fraud and the teachings were false, while he admitted having little familiarity or experience with them." Having "little familiarity" with them was always other people's accusations. I went through all the Lessons and practiced it all rather seriously. I did all the facing north, sitting on a blanket, funny breathing nonsense. With Aum, I even used that silly armrest and plugged up my ears, eyes, and every other orifice that they wanted me to plug. I would even do that silly robot dance that was suppose to "energize" me. > Borg108: "YB has said that he �shagged any female devotee he could get his hands on.� " Wouldn't you be surprised if he didn't? You admit he's human. How is it possible to have your personal quarters surrounded by those of adoring young women all craving your "divine" attention and not end up shagging them? Seriously? And these women are nuns, so they're not exactly getting their needs met -- they're surely not going to mind some extracurricular activities with the dashing exotic Indian male role model. I don't mean to be distasteful here, but I really don't see how it would be possible not too. What was he doing in a building surrounded by young nuns? The older ones, by the way, had their courters further away. Why was that? C'mon, there's no mystery here. In a huge audience in Salt Lake City, he chooses a 17 year old girl to "heal". I wanna "heal" 17 year old girls too! (Note to the female readers: Sorry about the crudeness, just trying to make a point here.) > 'A Voice in the Supermarket' wrote: "... the SRF Walrus Committee has restricted your right of speech, so to speak." Yes, the amount I can post here is severely limited. Chela2020 has recently had this restriction put on her as well for daring to speak of the "Master" as anything less than The Second Coming of Jesus Christ. > 'A Voice in the Supermarket' : "And the many postings that were rudely deleted by the Walrus because "the watchdogs" barked he should do it - I have saved copies, as luck would have it." A few days ago I was combing the board for posts by you and found very few -- no wonder. Sorry to hear about the deletions. Good you have copies. Feel free to stick those up on my board if you wish. > 'A Voice in the Supermarket' : "I sensed dark hostility and negativity in the Walrus board even before I posted anything. That's what sensitivity should do to you!" I was caught by surprise by it. Some really aggressive neuroses floating around here as you've noted. [Edited to correct a typo.] Edited by: YellowBeard420 at: 1/27/04 12:29 pm
rachelcorrie Registered User (1/27/04 12:56 pm) Reply	Point of Information Borg108 I think it's in the details sometimes Bear with my insanity ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Are you asking proof/documents to be posted on SRF Walrus, specifically by chela2020, and also by others? Have you posted the documents (Aims and Ammachi documents) you refer to above on SRF Walrus, are you willing to make the hard cold documents themselves available? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Are the reasons I ask basically these two questions above clear, are the questions clear? soulcircle/rachelcorrie/Dave Edited by: rachelcorrie at: 1/27/04 12:56 pm
Punk Yogi Registered User (1/27/04 2:24 pm) Reply	Going Round in Circles Till We All Fall Down.... Exhausted Ah yesss... astute observation, Voice Sun Tzu's Divide and Conquer strategy applied. Indeed possible. Although, if you notice, there isn't much to divide.. Walrus seems to be the same few people going round and round in a tedious, slowcircle.... with occasional lightning striking and revealing a panoramic landscape, but then just as quickly reverting back to darkness and people sticking flashlights into each others' faces. Punk doesn't know what to talk about anymore. What does it mean when people are more interested in discovering who Kolorado is than in pinpointing all the ways we have shrunk our awareness using these allegedly "expansive" teachings? Bitter irony! People like Yellowbeard bring back much needed vitality to this site. Though I took a years' break, I have been around since the inception of the Walrus. Back in 2001, I was delighted to be informed by a friend that someone had created a discussion board for people like me. It was an immense benefit, having a place I could go to air out my problems and to have the realization that I was not alone. When I left SRF, NOT ONE MINISTER called to see if I was alright. I imagine it must be like being married to someone you thought was the love of your life, and then 20 years later, after giving the best part of your heart and life away, you find out you were never in the picture, that you were never loved or wanted by that person. And in the lonely solitude of sorrow, in the middle of your weeping menace, you suddenly find 30 .... 40... a few hundred and more people just like yourself. Walked out this morning Don't believe what I saw A hundred billion bottles Washed up on the shore Seems I'm not alone at being alone A hundred billion castaways Looking for a home -- "Message In A Bottle" by The Police ..... I wept as I posted the above lyrics. Though the gashes have mended, there is always the permanent reminder of that vicious cut of betrayal. And though I've long assumed responsibility for my part in the dysfunctional "contract" with the cultish aspects of SRF, I ask myself often: What was I to know? I was just a kid at 17 with a deep human need to belong, to feel loved, to finally feel that, in this world of disparate entities, the Infinite --- through the eyes, protection, and loving concern of the guru ---- became for me the manifested warmth and love I once fancied was cold and distant. The world suddenly became cozier and familiar with all those "devotees" to make a life with. And there was that Presence -- a distinct, tangible joy felt in meditation and around the spiritual grounds. It lured me ever deeper into the heart of the organization. It seduced me. ....Then it all crashed. I was suddenly alone, I felt. And the Walrus became like a new home... Seems I'm not alone at being alone ...spanning cyberspace like a giant freeway overpass where all the disowned the orphans of the community could congregate and commiserate about their loss of good fortune... and perhaps find a way to rebuild their lives. I've always sense that it was the private wish of a few that the Walrus become the very diamond drill to puncture SRF's pretentious facade... Ironically, it seems to have done an equally good job at putting holes in OUR own masks. Long live the Trickster! I think a lot of people were ready and willing like Toto to show us the man behind the curtain. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" cries the powerful Wizard of Oz. What the Walrus has finally taught me is that SRF has become one with the mask it has long worn. They have invested all their remaining talents and energy to preserving and protecting us from intimate knowledge about the place. In the end, that one "act" speaks volumes. If SRF gets its way, you will never know the truth unless: 1) You old-timers retire from your cowardice and tell it straight. 2) You monks and employees raid the archives and release real information for the public to chew on 3) You create a major media event 4) You find a basis for a class action lawsuit and bring SRF to its knees The hurt-fueled accusations were novel back in 2001 and and 2002. But in 2004, it frames us as the very pip-squeaks Daya Mata has been inclined to name us. If you really want to make a difference, convert betrayal into righteous vengeance. I'm being poetic here. What I mean is... Convert every impulse you have into roughing up the church. Shake it up so intensely, gang up on it, turn it upside down and shake it so suddenly and so furiously until everything falls out of its pockets. If you cannot muster the courage to do this unitedly, accept the easy fate of limbo. Edited by: Punk Yogi at: 1/27/04 3:03 pm
chuckle chela Registered User (1/27/04 3:17 pm) Reply	Re: The Walrus Cult YB, I took up oaks' suggestion to check out your exchange with him on your website. In a post of yours there, I found the following snippets: *Quote:* Many times I feel as if my efforts in attempting to provide some kind of assistance to those drowning in the sea of neurosis of Yogananda ideology is in utter vain. But I remind myself that we're like acts of nature, like wind blowing through the trees; we do what we do, if it cools someone's face or simply passes by unnoticed, we should look at it all the same. . . . I appreciate your kind acts of mercy, and your dispassionate blowing through the trees, but no one here asked you to show up. Just thought I'd make that distinction. But you're free to do as you wish. *Quote:* Before I started the board, the black-hole of Yogananda doctrine would suck me in from time to time. I would have to struggle each time to pull myself out. So I finally thought, "Enough is enough, Yogananda needs to be extricated by force from the mind!" And so this rebellion was born. . . . So, it seems you have some personal reasons for showing up here; I'm glad to see you once again admitting this. Kinda confusing for us, though, in trying to decide if you're a dispassionate breeze or someone (like the rest of us) who's trying to work out some stuff. *Quote:* I'm waging a heavy handed blitzkrieg type of campaign. I don't want a protracted long struggle. Surgical strikes are surely more effective, but carpet bombing has been more satisfying. And this process has to be quick. Resistant Yogananda thought-forms can't be given time to regroup. [I hope you don't mind the colorful description of this process. hehe.] It hasn't been long, 3 months or so that I've been at this. I'd have to chase down my first post to see exactly. And I feel it's been brutally effective. The mind feels very clear and free. There's still a little movement. Nothing that a few more passes shouldn't take care of. It would be the responsible thing to send in the troops to mop up, but I kind of would like to see the bombers do a few more runs. Ah, that good, ol' military metaphor. Kinda reminds me a bit of SRF (but that is a whole other topic). And such a nondualist metaphor, to boot! Again, though, I'm a bit confused. Are you really dedicated to bringing the truth about Yogananda to light, or is it just some kind of game with you, militarist or otherwise? Might it be a game you're having to play to overcome the residual cognitive dissonance? The military metaphor is a marvelous path of avoidance, isn't it? Nah, you're in nirbikalpa samadhi. I'm just so puzzled, is all; just not sure what the agenda is. Dear me. Must be some kind of brilliant strategy aimed at helping me overcome my delusions. I ask these things, not to be unkind, but just trying to figure out what's going on with you. I must confess that I'm less than impressed with what I saw in that post. I do wish you well.
nagchampa2 Registered User (1/27/04 6:14 pm) Reply	Re: The Walrus Cult Yellowbeard, I had a copy of the original Gita, and it was very, very short. I gave it back to the woman who gave it to me. SRF said that they added to it by using his notes from various places. What was actually written was printed in the East-West magazines and can be read at www.yogananda-dif.org I agree with you on the Nirvikalpa statement. But Yellowbeard, never say that you have reached Nirvikalpa, go for the highest, Sahaja Samadhi. Never underestimate yourself. There is a rumor that he was Arjuna himself. He was also Shakespeare and William the Conquerer. An Avatar, according to Hindu belief, always comes to earth as an Avatar, not as another person other than, in other words, "He/She has no history."
Borg108 Registered User (1/27/04 6:26 pm) Reply	Re: answer to Rachael Dave/Rachael asks, �Are you asking proof/documents to be posted on SRF Walrus, specifically by %%WORD12% 20, and also by others? Have you posted the documents (Aims and Ammachi documents) you refer to above on SRF Walrus, are you willing to make the hard cold documents themselves available?� I�m asking that people behave responsibly. Before presenting information as fact, they should have a reasonable certitude that the information is true and can be verified by those who want to take the time and trouble to do so. This is especially important for serious accusations that can harm another�s reputation and shake the faith of their followers, such as sexual misconduct or plagiarism. If you take another look at my Amma Inc posting, you�ll see that I did provide documentation right within it of the misrepresentation of AMMA�s charitable activates by including the disclosure that was sent to all her satsanga groups by the former swami who was in charge of her organization�s finances and in a position to know the truth about these things. I also included his current email address for those who wanted to contact him for further details. Furthermore, his information was entirely consistent with the information that our common friend provided to me, and that I discovered also from other sources in India. If you want to contact our friend to see his documents, including financial statements, interview notes, emails to and from hospital administrators and doctors, I�m sure he would show it all to you, just as he showed it to me. You can ask him if minds you posting it on the internet. I�ve already stated why I have no more interest in doing this sort of thing. There's no upside in trying to undermine peoples' faith in their Guru or spirtual path. As for the questions at hand regarding Yogananda, let�s see what actual evidence now exists. Nag/chela provided references to Swami Satyananda�s account (by way of Sayeswarananda and Kriyananda) of how the Science of Religion came about. According to Satyananda, the ideas evolved when Yogananda had a discussion with an American couple. He then set the ideas down on paper in Bengali. A group of Indians, including Yogananda, Satyananda and Dhirananda, got together to refine the ideas. Then it became Dhirananda�s task to edit and present them in acceptable English. Now does this sound like plagiarism? As for inappropriate sexual conduct, there has been absolutely no evidence or logic given to substantiate these rumors, other than YB saying that if he had been in Yogananda�s situation, he would have been trying to have sex with as women there as he could. This I don�t doubt :-) . I also don�t doubt that if nag/chela (or any of us) would go around displaying siddhis, it would be wrong. But saints are not the same as us. Jesus said I do things not of myself but to glorify Him who sent me. If you don�t believe there are such things as saints, then you won�t believe this. Maybe you could tell us how you would have reacted, Rachael, but if I were a woman and had sex with my Guru, I would have been severely traumatized and psychologically damaged by the experience.. I would have at some point needed to come forth and tell all, just as the women did who were with Kriyananda, Amrit Desai, Swami Rama, Vishnudevananda, Satchitananda, etc. So where are they? After 75 years, all we have are rumors and unsubstantiated allegations. Because something appears in a tabloid paper without any proof or substantiation doesn't make it true. Why do you want to assume the worst? Nerode and Dhirananda had plenty of opportunity to cast that stone and didn�t. Why should you? What is your motivation for spreading gossip and unsubstantiated rumor? Even if Nerode or Dhirananda had lashed out at Yogananda in this way, why would you want to believe them? Where I come from, one is presumed innocent until the preponderence of evidence indicates otherwise. So far, there isn't ANY evidence, only witchhunt type accusations and innuendos. May I go now? Edited by: Borg108 at: 1/28/04 12:13 pm
ugizralrite Registered User (1/27/04 7:03 pm) Reply	Re: Going Round in Circles Till We All Fall Down.... Exhaust -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting YB: "I did all the facing north, sitting on a blanket, funny breathing nonsense. With Aum, I even used that silly armrest and plugged up my ears, eyes, and every other orifice that they wanted me to plug. I would even do that silly robot dance that was suppose to "energize" me." -------------------------------------------------------------------------- My comment: Yikes!! I thought it was east. One of us is in big trouble. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Quoting YB: Yes, the amount I can post here is severely limited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ My comment: Yikes again!! What energization exercises are you doing? If this is limited then Encyclopedia Britannica had better move over for Encyclopedia YB. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Punk Yogi: People like Yellowbeard bring back much needed vitality to this site. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My comment: I agree, and I also appreciate your long post on the wrenching experience you have had. I am quite optimistic about the power of walrus to present a united force of renewal to the true hearts who remember their first love of spirit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoting Nagchampa: "There is a rumor that he was Arjuna himself. He was also Shakespeare and William the Conquerer. An Avatar, according to Hindu belief, always comes to earth as an Avatar, not as another person other than, in other words, "He/She has no history." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My comment: This is something that had never occurred to me, but it really is probably the most powerful thing I have heard on the claims of being an Avatar. Not that it matters much to me personally, since all this is a game anyway. We all need to lighten up, as fun as it is to go round and round, because none of this is problematic to God, and if it doesn't bother God, then why should I feel otherwise? Edited by: ugizralrite at: 1/27/04 7:24 pm
soulcircle Registered User (1/27/04 8:38 pm) Reply	Casting the Stone Borg108: *Quote:* Nerode and Dhirananda had plenty of opportunity to cast that stone and didn�t. Why should you? Dhirananda sued his partner, Yogananda (after his friend from childhood failed him) and won. Sex was taboo even as a topic of conversation, even between parent and child, even birth was a taboo topic. I never knew a chaste person, and anything we don't personally experience has some aspects of mytho-history. Surrounding oneself with youthful impressed woman, hmmm. Life has enough lessons and myth has enough distortions. My inspiration come from people who also have lust as part of the wiring. No small grief comes to me that people despising themselves for a lust they assume (in myth) that Yogananda controlled have had all manner of self-loathing, including myself. Less than 12 months ago a person we discussed in here committed suicide---that's not myth---yet she like myself tried to measure up to perfection and failed. Is perfection a myth? Cause Paramhansa ate meat not infrequently and people very alive today knew his cook very well, and sat at the table. I am the insane one of them all, yet--- where do all of us end up beating our heads against walls laughing, insane like me ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have something more practical to offer people with a teenager like me. laughing---I tell my teenager she has four college options Army Navy Air Force Marines will I let you go? where is there to go present and here what other existence could be as dear at any moment's insistence one of history's mythological yet truly tested leaders Shackleford brought his 18 men safe, the healthy and bleeders from their 18 months locked up and frozen in Antartica having lost their ship, had his chosen in his very tent he kept the troublemakers so don't let go of me until the day to meet my makers so as we too frozen and cold survice together this hilarious school of hard knocks let's together stay til we're old for a couple jokes I'll even put away your socks the walrus board has changed as everything in life does my self-admitted insanity a plea to tickle your self if need be, for this wild raw [sht to the wind] storm, put up wid me all we may actually need is pain interspersed with the glee for never did a Walrus sail a finer ship so changing and surely than this one with understanding and sympathy for each nun(ee) and monk eee cornflakes circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 1/27/04 9:00 pm*

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