A Modest Proposal - www.ezboard.com

SRF Walrus

Mt. Washington, Ca

Open discussions about SRF

SRF Walrus > Messages to Mother Center > A Modest Proposal
Page 1 2	<< Prev Topic \| Next Topic >>

Author	Comment
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/19/01 2:39 pm) Reply	A Modest Proposal Dear friends at the Mother Center, dear devotees everywhere: Sri Yukteshwarji said, “Fools argue. Wise men discuss.” Let us have a true discussion. Let us come together in a spirit of love and reconciliation and talk about our differences — openly, honestly and in a dignified manner consistent with kriya yoga’s message of the harmony underlying different beliefs. I hereby propose that the Mother Center sponsor an international forum in Los Angeles to discuss issues and concerns regarding the SRF that have arisen over the many years since Master left his body. Monastic and lay representatives from each temple, center, meditation group and circle would be invited to attend. Representatives representing both the majority and minority views of each of these respective groups would be elected by the membership of each of the groups. The forum would be an interactive dialog and not merely a question and answer session. The SRF leadership and membership could raise concerns, share ideas, learn about the unique challenges faced by each other and build trust and understanding. Though the representatives would be the primary individuals involved in the dialog, others who wanted to do so would be invited to attend and observe. Any issue or concern, without limitation, could be raised at the forum, provided it was done in a loving and respectful manner. This would be an opportunity for the leadership and membership to communicate in a novel and positive way and to begin to heal the inharmonies that have developed within the SRF. The focus would not be on fault finding and blame, but on moving forward together in a constructive manner. We have all made mistakes. Despite our best efforts to be otherwise, we are all human. Let us accept our humanity, even as we strive for perfection. There is nothing that we cannot accomplish with love. We have all fallen from God’s ideal. Let us join hands and rise together. Love to you all.
username Registered User (12/19/01 7:52 pm) Reply	Re: A Modest Proposal For this to be effective you would need to allow a true cross section of members: those that go to the temple and made have made a decision to not join the group those who do not go to a meditation circle but do the lessons etc Those that are lesson students only and have not received kriya those that have come to a temple service and rejected SRF because of bad experiences those who have had contact with mother center and have had bad experiences It is only from hearing a true cross section of opinion that you would be able to evaluate what's wrong with SRF
Reporter Unregistered User (12/19/01 11:14 pm) Reply	There has already been a forum Something similar to this forum you are describing already took place. About 3 years ago about 40 monastics, monks and nuns, even board members, and a few employees, got together at Lake Shrine for a 4 day discussion about the status of SRF. It was an open discussion where the group listed many of the same problems sometimes discussed here. SRF management freaked out. Everyone was much more open and honest than management wanted or expected. While follow up meetings were planned, and the problems compiled, the whole process was quickly canceled. Management claimed that it was Master’s way not to talk about illnesses because that only acknowledged the limitations of the body. We are spirit! Management felt this also applied to talking about problems within the organization. These are the people editing Master’s words for us! If anyone has the list of problems from that meeting please post them here! (Or email them to the Walrus for him/her to post)
AumBoy Registered User (12/20/01 9:16 am) Reply	We are Spirit!!!!!????? Let's see: Problems cannot be discussed because it is an acknowledgement that the problems actually exist so we pretend they don't exist and everything is perfect. So if I have a bill to pay and I don't have the money to pay it, acknowledging that I don't have the money is a limitation, so I just ignore it? What does one do when the bill collector comes to the door? Ignore the knocking? Also, were they talking about organizational problems? Is the organization going to become realized? Does the building meditate? Edited by: AumBoy at: 12/20/01 9:18:46 am
Raja Begum Unregistered User (12/20/01 10:22 am) Reply	A Riddle I Cannot Solve Which forces me to wonder: How is it possible to expand one's consciousness and practice unconsciousness (denial) at the same time?
Alice Registered User (12/20/01 11:32 am) Reply	Re: A Riddle I Cannot Solve But isn't this the riddle that we all face? We all have our areas of blindness (denial) where we are trapped in maya and delusion. While at the same time we are striving for expansion of consciousness. Until we are finally free, this will continue to be the case. To me, I think the hardest part about accepting that MC has flaws was realizing the power of maya. I had expected these advanced disciples to be perfect, or at least more perfect than me. And if I could so easily see the error of their ways, why couldn't they see them? It is quite humbling to realize the challenge of this path and to understand that this path is not about perfection, it is about ultimate freedom. Furthermore, each one of us will be put in situations that bring out our imperfections until we realize that the only way OUT is to seek freedom instead of perfection. Perfection will always elude us until then. I think this understanding also helps me to accept and maybe even forgive the mistakes of those who are more advanced and seemingly should "know better". I appreciated the post elsewhere which theorized that those in charge may have been put there by Master, not because they are the perfect role models for this path, but rather for them to be able to learn their karmic lessons that they wouldn't otherwise learn. In trying to understand this drama, I think that we can't judge things by our own standards. God/Guru may not care one bit about whether SRF or any other group survives. He/She does not need these organizations to fulfill His/Her purpose - or will create other ones if needed. God/Guru is only working to bring us to freedom. Whatever drama is required to accomplish that purpose will be manufactured for our benefit.
KS Registered User (12/20/01 12:08 pm) Reply	Alice! Really good message. Just the kind of analysis I come here to read. There are some really mature seekers out here and thanks for taking the time to help with this kind of message. I wish I was hearing that kind of honest analysis from the mother center. They refuse to even admit problems. Yes, many of us thought they would be better than we are. We thought it would be inspirational to be associated with them. What a surprise. Master doesn't need SRF, and doesn't want us dependent on SRF. The very people he selected to run it may have been done to make sure that dependency didn't materialize. Ah the big plan.
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/20/01 12:33 pm) Reply	Re: A Riddle I Cannot Solve It's a riddle, wrapped inside an enigma, stuck behind a mystery. I find it interesting that there has been such a strong emphasis placed on the few words of advice that Master gave before his passing on how the organization should be run after he was no longer in physical form. Often, these words, which were scant from what I understand, are used to justify broad policy decisions, for example, the decision to sue Ananda for copyright infringement (I'm not from there, by the way). While it is important to look at his words, words are inexact. Consider the following passage from Sayings of Paramahansa Yogananda: "Master, I love everyone," a disciple said. "You should love only God," Paramahansaji replied. The disciple met the Guru a few weeks later. He asked her, "Do you love others?" "I keep my love only for God," the devotee answered. "You should love all with that same love." The baffled disciple said, "Sir, what is your meaning? First you say to love all is wrong; then you say that to include anyone is wrong." "You are attracted to the personality of people; that leads to limiting attachments," the Master explained. "When you truly love God you will see Him in each face, and will know what it means to love all. It is not forms and egos that we should adore, but the indwelling Lord in everyone. He alone informs His creatures with life, charm and individuality." The difficulty is that once the guru leaves physical form, he's not around to clarify exactly what he meant by what he said earlier or how it applies in a particular context. The only way to figure it out is to "attune" to him in meditation, and until you are also God-realized, whatever you feel in meditation will be filtered through your ego. Everyone has their own individual karma that obscures true wisdom. It may be easy for you to see that using totalitarian methods of control to run Master's organization isn't the right thing to do, but your consciousness is different from that of the SRF leadership. Some of them, despite their inability to recognize their own faults, could probably see yours and mine in an instant. Maya is a funny thing. Anyway, my point is that no one has a monopoly on truth. Each person has to figure it out for him- or herself. Master may have said this or that, but only you can determine how what he said applies to you. There is a danger, of course, in seeing ambiguity in Master's words. The ego will try to twist his words into what it wants to hear: e.g., "Master said no more SRF gurus, but did he really mean no more EVER?" Some things he really DID mean literally, and I think it's important to err on the side of caution in interpreting what his words mean to you. We have to use some common sense. Another danger to avoid in your personal search for truth is nitpicking everything Mother Center does to death. Master did select them, for whatever reasons, to lead his organization, and I think we need to give them the benefit of the doubt most of the time. However, when decisions are being made that are really hurting people (e.g., see story of evicted disabled man elsewhere on this site) and the leadership doesn't want to discuss it, I think it's time to stop and ask what's going on. Master said in one instance something like, "Follow Daya, and I will correct her if she makes a mistake." Well, I think we should defer to her judgment whenever it seems reasonable to do so. However, if she told us all to jump off a cliff tomorrow, I don't think we should do it. Remember the story in the lessons about the saint who didn't want to lie so he told a murderer where to find his victim? We don't want to be like that. Master gave us certain guidelines to follow, but God also gave us minds, and Master wants us to use them, albeit with discernment and tact. If we don't always get it right, it's okay. The important thing is that we try and that we do everything with love. Everyone messes up. When you start to get mad, remember that "they" are just "us" in different lives, and we have all incarnated in this yuga full of problems because it's what we need, karmically speaking, to grow. We're all part of the Infinite Spirit, drifting through eternity without a real clue about what we're doing. Only love can bring us home again. Peace to you all.
AumBoy Registered User (12/20/01 12:37 pm) Reply	Exactly, Alice! *Quote:* I had expected these advanced disciples to be perfect, or at least more perfect than me. Yes! When I was in the ashram, this was one desire that Master, time and again, prodded me with. Until I "realized" that many of the monastics were not more "advanced" than me I kept becoming disillusioned. Time and again, Master would hint (some not so subtle) NOT to follow certain people's examples. I had assumed that by virtue of being longer on the path than I that that meant "advancement". Not so. People are put in places so they can learn their lessons. I learned and then left. Why? God is not to be found in an ashram, a home, at work, at play... simply within me (in everyone). And when I "realized" that, then I knew He was in the ashram, at home, at work, for He is in me.
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/20/01 1:48 pm) Reply	Re: Exactly, Alice! Bravo, AumBoy and others. These last few messages are exactly the type of positive, constructive exchanges that I envisioned for the forum I originally suggested. If the SRF leadership is monitoring this board, I hope they are paying attention. We're not just a group of disgruntled former employees and Ananda members. Many of us care deeply about the organization and want Master's vision for it to be realized. We don't all like to be critical, but we feel we need to "tell it like it is" (even if we've got some of it wrong), and this is the only way to do so without fear of recrimination and reprisals. To continue the earlier discussion, I think it's important to learn to tolerate ambiguity on this path, just as we must learn to do so in life generally. A lot of things in the world don't make sense? Why have we found a cure for Hodgkins disease but not the common cold? Why did blues legend B.B. King never learn how to play chords? Why can we fly to the moon but not blah blah blah. There's such a strong tendency for people to want to see things in black and white. Either so and so is spiritually advanced or he isn't. Either he knows everything or knows nothing. Daya is good. Daya is bad. We're right. They're wrong. It just isn't that simple. Consider the numerous examples of advanced yogis who have later fallen and used their power to attract naive sexual partners and do all sorts of other inappropriate things. Were they completely "good" before they fell and completely "bad" afterward? Of course not. We all have good and bad samskaras (tendencies) that manifest at different times, in different ways. We're all trying to do the right thing. As I said in another message somewhere else on this site, no one gets up in the morning and decides to be a tyrant. We're all good, and we're all bad, or as John Lennon poetically put it, "We're all Christ, and we're all Hitler." This is why it's so important to stand up for what is right but not to judge others for their failures. When you judge others for being human, you only create bad karma for yourself and send negative vibrations out into the world. We must, MUST stay positive even in the darkest times and not let our concern for the organization degenerate into fuel for our egos. We need to stir up the ether with positive energy and create the right kind of magnetism that will improve the situation. Even if there's little that we can do physically to change the SRF, we can have the right attitude. Love to you all.
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/20/01 4:07 pm) Reply	More Thoughts Two further points: 1) In some of my earlier messages, I have at least implicitly raised the possibility that certain of the SRF leadership may not be self-realized. Because it takes a self-realized being to know one, and I am most certainly not one, I want to make it clear that my speculation is just that. However, I think a more important question to ask than “Is so and so self-realized?” is “Does it matter?” If the entire board of directors is self-realized, I don’t think that means we should stop thinking for ourselves. If I were with Master, an avatar, and he kicked a puppy in the rain, I’d ask him why he did it, and he would probably tell me why unless he thought I needed to figure it out intuitively. He might even discipline me for asking a question to which he thought I should know the answer, which would be okay -- at least I'd learn that way and not always wonder. In any case, I don’t think he would say, “I don’t want to discuss my puppy kicking problem with you because it’s not good to talk about problems, and furthermore, you're now on my list of trouble makers!” The point here is that self-realized or not, I don’t think it should be inappropriate for us to question the SRF leadership about bizarre behavior that we really don’t understand, provided we do so in a courteous manner and don't bug them all the time about everything. 2) I think it’s important to acknowledge that the SRF leadership has done some really good things -- not everything in the last half century has been a mistake. Despite the problems, we certainly owe them some thanks and respect for what they have done to spread Master’s teachings and keep the organization together. I wouldn’t want the job that some of them have, and am sure I would have made some big mistakes over the course of 50 years if I had been in their positions. I’m not saying we should be complacent and not try to make things better. I’m just saying I do appreciate the effort and sacrifices that have been made for Master’s work. Jai Guru Edited by: Devotee1970 at: 12/20/01 5:02:23 pm
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/20/01 8:41 pm) Reply	Forum Rules FORUM RULES I have started drafting a “code of conduct” for the forum I proposed. Your comments are welcome! RULE #1: LOVE All forum comments shall be made with love and civility. The focus shall be on improvement rather than on placing blame for past mistakes. Individuals shall be singled out only to the extent necessary to correct existing problems -- and then, only in a respectful manner. No one shall engage in personal attacks of any nature. Commentary on Rule #1 We need to get away from the blame game. Attacking people rather than problems doesn’t get us anywhere except deeper into maya. I understand why some on this message board need to vent their frustrations, even if it isn’t done in a constructive manner. Sometimes, people just need to release some tension, and that’s okay -- that’s human. I also understand that sometimes it’s hard to distinguish people from problems -- but we have to try to separate the issues from the personalities to the extent we can do so. It hurts to be singled out and personally criticized, particularly when you’re trying to do the right thing. Imagine that you have spent your entire adult life as an SRF monastic, perhaps even part of your adolescence, and that you were given great responsibilities that you didn’t really want -- all you really wanted was to meditate and know God. Imagine that your entire social self-concept was defined by your role at the SRF. Imagine that you tried very hard to do the right thing but made some mistakes that hurt people, some of them very badly. Imagine that you wanted to fix things but didn’t know how. How would you feel if the people you had spent your life trying your best to serve started ridiculing you for your humanity, for dealing with your karmic duties the best you could? If you think that the SRF leadership has been so hardened by yogic training and discipline that they don’t feel pain anymore, you’re wrong. When we attack them personally, it hurts them (and it hurts us). I also believe that most of them love and care about the SRF membership deeply -- not only about “getting the message out to people” and raising money, but about each one of us as individuals. You may ask, if they care so much, why all of the horror stories about certain individuals being callous and indifferent at times? I don’t have any answer except to say that maya’s a funny thing. People with good hearts can make mistakes, even mistakes involving moral and ethical lapses, under the right set of circumstances. In fact, that’s exactly what maya is designed to do in a way: to place us in situations that bring our shortcomings to the surface so we can hopefully address them and move on. We all need to be kinder to each other and kinder to ourselves. Yoga stresses developing a strong will and fighting against wrong (sense) tendencies. The entire Bhagavad Gita is an allegorical battle. While it does require tremendous effort and self discipline to achieve self-realization, there is a danger in taking on too much of a “battlefield” mentality toward life. If you’re not careful, it’s easy to become too hard on yourself and too hard on others. The irony is that the greater your passion is to know God and to break out of maya, the greater this danger is. Perhaps that’s the answer to why mature souls can still end up hurting people: they love God so much and try so hard to overcome all obstacles perceived as blocking Him that innocent people get hurt in the wake of their zeal. I have sometimes found this to be the case in my own householder life. When it does, I try to stop and remind myself that balance on the path is as important as moving forward. If God wanted us to know Him as soon as possible at any cost, he wouldn’t have created maya in the first place. Don’t think that I’m excusing inappropriate behavior by anyone (myself included) for one instant – I’m not. But you have to look beyond the little box we’re all stuck in and see the bigger picture: we’re all children of God on a journey back home to Him, and we’ll all get there some day in our own time. We need to remember this when we start getting into an “us” vs. “them” mentality. “They” aren’t the enemy -- maya is the enemy. If someone has fallen deeper into the pit than you, don’t kick him further down and bring yourself down with him. Pray for him as you would your own child, say what needs to be said, do what needs to be done, and love everyone, yourself included, unconditionally. God doesn’t really care whether the SRF survives, how many “A’s” our guru spelled his name with or how much we’ve all screwed up in the past and hurt people. He cares about us coming home to Him, and we can’t do this as long as we beat ourselves up. RULE #2: SEE RULE #1
XInsider Unregistered User (12/20/01 9:20 pm) Reply	This thread It is sweet to see the love for Master that these comments spring from. But as far as SRF is concerned, do not be so naive as to believe that this org. has not already slipped beyond the cure. Somehow, slowly but surely, even though no one wanted it to get ugly -- even thought everyone thought they were serving the greater good -- the org. has moved far beyond the reach of friendly debate and discussion to improve matters. Alot of money is at stake. Many reputations and entire lives hang on retaining a sense of righteousness, no matter what the shortfalls have been. They will not bend. All they have lived for, all they have built, all they feel they have become rests in hanging on to their subjective reality to the end. That is why some of us have chosen to say good bye. As much as it hurts. There is no possibility of debate or even a two way conversation as long as the present leadership is in power, and that will most likely be a long time. If you do not believe me - great! Try! See if the delaying tactics you will encounter, the doublespeak and the insincere, pacifying language hold something for you other than frustration. I hope you succeed. If you do, share it with us.
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/21/01 6:26 am) Reply	Re: This thread I don't know about the others, but I didn't write the things I did because I thought such a forum will actually take place in this yuga. The point to me isn't that we should all storm into the Mother Center headquarters and overwhelm them with righteousness. The point is that even if we can't change the organization now, we can change ourselves. We can learn to be more loving and compassionate from our trials. Thank you for your comments and God bless you. Edited by: Devotee1970 at: 12/21/01 6:51:16 am
Crog Unregistered User (12/21/01 7:35 am) Reply	In Any In any event, we should resist their changes and inharmonious ways. Probably not expecting results immediately, but we owe it to Master and ourselves to resist what they have done to his work.
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/21/01 8:51 am) Reply	Re: In Any Yes, we can love them and still each take whatever action (however overt or subtle that may be) we feel called to take -- hopefully being guided by wisdom and not ego.
premdas Registered User (12/21/01 6:25 pm) Reply	Re: In Any I agree w/ D1970's desire to see more respect shown for each other on this forum. Let us agree to love one another as gurubais. Disagreements may come and go....
Devotee1970 Registered User (12/21/01 10:39 pm) Reply	Re: In Any I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to stifle anyone's free expression by suggesting that we try to proceed in as considerate a manner as possible given the circumstances. I know that some people have had their lives utterly devasted by the SRF leadership and may need to let out a lot of anger in order to facilitate the healing process -- and that's certainly fine with me. Better to do it here than hold it all in and then let it explode in Barnes & Noble one day and start throwing all of Daya's books at the cashiers. There are so few places that we can actually talk about how we truly feel about SRF, and I think everyone should feel free to say what they need to here in order to cope with the situation. My faith has been shaken to the core by all of this, but I know I haven't gone through nearly the suffering that some of you have. The alterations of Master's writings, the waste of money and similar types of things are troubling, but it really tears me up inside to see people who have been hurt in very direct, personal and severe ways. It's painful for me even to look at pictures of the Mother Center and other SRF properties right now -- the physical structures are perfectly maintained while the things that are truly important are crumbling. That being said, I think that those who can do so need to try to meet evil with love. I know its tough, but we need to try. God's love is hiding even in the hearts of those who persecute us. Try to connect with that love if you can. God bless you, friends. I love you all so dearly.
Crog Unregistered User (12/21/01 11:04 pm) Reply	Smart Bomb I am thinking more along the lines of meeting evil with smart bombs, but then I have been watching a lot of CNN! It would be great if we could root out the problems, destroy them, with little damage to the (few) good people still on the inside. That would facilitate the recovery. We may harm Master's work bringing these things to light as some good people may be turned off of following Master by what they see and hear from us. Not our fault of course. The behavior we describe is the cause.
chuckle Unregistered User (12/21/01 11:16 pm) Reply	Xinsider's post I hear what you're saying, xinsider. What you and reporter bring to light is truly saddening. "Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat its lessons." (I wonder if that's partially the cause of all this trouble--that SRF leaders were convinced that our "new dispensation" was somehow beyond the lessons of history, was outside the boundaries of divine and human laws, was completely unique to anything that had gone before it. We have seen these tragedies played out before so many times in religious institutions, and yet all around us today so many religious institutions are learning the lessons and moving forward through openess, honesty, dialogue, respect, and courage. If you are right about SRF's leaders and their response, I can only see SRF becoming more insular and isolated and irrelevant, which is so sad as Master's message is just the opposite.
Raja Begum Unregistered User (12/22/01 12:50 am) Reply	Nice insight Chuckle Could it be that they didn't know much history to begin with? They were very young when Master took them in. Adding to their ignorance of history is their association with a charismatic and transcendental personality. They probably didn't see any necessity in knowing anything about the outside world. Just running the organization faithfully and devotion. Remember those uneducated housewives from the '40s and '50s? I'm also detecting samskaras related to traditional religion. You know, everybody keeps saying how they're repeating the Catholic church all over again. Its like when Sevaki said she still has the monastic habit ....and I thought "Oh yeah!"....so maybe the SRF leaders still have the Catholic / Calvinist / Mormon.....I was going to say Jewish, but I don't think they have that habit!!

Page 1 2

<< Prev Topic | Next Topic >>

Email This To a Friend
Topic Control Image

Topic Commands

Click to receive email notification of replies

Click to stop receiving email notification of replies

jump to: