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soulcircle
Registered User
(2/21/03 10:21 am)
Reply
no one
no one?? is asking him to clearly and openly say that he and faye aren't "god-realized" except the odd moments of insane happy oneness once and awhile:

if no one else can find better words please include the following:

....announce to all that Daya Mata and you [Br. Vishwananda], though maybe blessed at times by some measure of "God-realization," are not infallible and make errors in judgement.

chela2020
Registered User
(2/21/03 1:45 pm)
Reply
Re: no one
soulcircle,

do you want this at the end of your poems? If so, why not put it in a poetic way so that it will blend in with the rest of your post? It would just look nice. Well, aren't I one for wanting things to match. LOL. Anyway, it is just a suggestion, but I could add it like that unless, like you say, someone else can find better words. But I know that you can do it.

chuckle chela
Registered User
(2/21/03 2:53 pm)
Reply
Please, Mr. Postman . . .
Soulcircle, sorry I didn't respond earlier to your query. Short answer: no, no written or verbal response directly from Vishwananda. There have been several communications about all these issues between me and Mother Center, both verbally and in writing, with a number of monastics. I'm not sure if one of the others was covering for him; if so, none of them acknowledged that fact. I've had different reactions from different monastics covering the full spectrum. All I can say at this point is that I get the feeling there are significant differences of opinion at Mother Center between monastics regarding the state of affairs in SRF; others have mentioned this before on the Walrus. I still think it is worthwhile letting them know what you think, even if you don't get a letter in return.

Vishwananda's name is Ronald Eisley. If you address the letter using his legal name, it's even more likely to get to him, as such a letter is seen as a personal letter and is even less likely to be seen by someone else.

I suspect Vishwananda is in a very tricky position, stuck between his loyalty to Daya Mata and the BOD on the one hand, and the complaints and concerns he's hearing from other monastics, employees, and members on the other. I think it's unlikely that Vishwananda will be able to change much unless there is a significant amount of support for change from the membership, and one has to remember that many, many members are perfectly happy with the current state of affairs and do NOT want to rock the boat.

The monastics tried to change things and their efforts, sadly, weren't as successful as we all would have wished. It seems to me that the ball is now in the members' court. If they want change, like a number of monastics did and still do, it will be up to them to convince the SRF leaders that changes are good. But, as others have noted before on the Walrus, the short and perhaps brutal truth (depending on your perspective) is that a very small group of people, most of them nuns, have virtually all the power and control in SRF.

chuckle chela
Registered User
(2/21/03 3:05 pm)
Reply
chela2020--great job!
You and Borg are to be commended for your efforts. I've edited my FOR and added some additional stuff.

I think soulcircle's humor about giving a warning is great. Well done, soulcircle!

With all due respect, I think that addressing and distributing a letter to SRF members through a venue like Convo is something that needs to be considered very carefully and cautiously. Our concerns are not with the members but with management. Involving many unwitting members by exposing them to such a letter will probably do more damage than good, and it certainly would not be seen favorably by the BOD. It is not a good way of negotiating. There are many newcomers to SRF at Convocations, for example, who could easily be quite upset to read a letter expressing serious reservations over SRF policies. Many members, new and old, would see the letter as little more than an attack on SRF, on Master, on something they value very much. I wouldn't support distributing any such letter to the members in any such venue.

Moreover, I'm not aware that such a move worked for Ananda when they distributed flyers at the 2001 Convocation; I didn't see that they got a groundswell of support from their efforts, as chela2020's comments demonstrate.

I think soulcircle's comments about "realized" and/or "infallible" leaders are well taken. These type of concepts need to be examined and discussed.

chela2020
Registered User
(2/21/03 4:00 pm)
Reply
Re: chela2020--great job!
chuckle chela,

I edited your post, so you may reread it and see if it is correct.

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/21/03 6:48 pm)
Reply
OMG
Chuckle Chela,

Please help me in some confusion....
i needed to stop in the midst of reading your post, to ask

chuckle chela,

see i was reading your comment about negotiating with......

and my heart is saying HAS chuckle chela heard back from Vishwa whom you wrote to "several months ago"

do you understand my question?
you wrote to Vishwa months ago, yes?
did you hear back?

maybe this will clear my confusion

p.s. chuckle chela, i am outgoing, already friends with hundreds, maybe more than 500 at the convos, and many from other continents, and when people ask my how i am, i speak my mind, and ask them theirs.....so the context is not exactly as might ordinarily thought

openness, warmth, truth and being unstructured is a style of negotiating that i hear works universally and for millenia in INDIA

a little India at L.A. will be just what the doctor ordered, along with some of my southern ohio [almost Kentucky upbringing] jugband music

everything will be ok~~~~~~~~~fear, fears us

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

chela2020, please send the request for Vishwa to announce to all, just as I said, [I am busy with family, and also, I am busy writiing a post on the board on another thread or new topic], could you please?
otherwise I would rewrite in poetry

circle

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/21/03 6:59 pm)
Reply
very limited sharing
chela2020 and chuckle chela,

you have both expressed yourselves well about not distributing at convocation,
having voiced my free spirit desire in the post above, i now have changed my mind

i also finished reading your full post chuckle chela

at this time i will bend my will to agree with you both and not distribute at convo

two reservations remain
a time comes when one needs to let their light shine for the world........appropiate sharing will come of its own timeline......be ready

last reservation, if you are not able to respond to my {fourth time around} question chucklechela
did you write to Visha previously?
did he respond?

if you are not able to respond, i will realize that you are half as dysfunctional as I am, and only a little more functional than srf

and my only hope is to remind you
Hi
I am Dave
I am a srfaholic in a 12 step program
one day at a time

please if you don't respond to my question chuckle chela, please realize that i find further communication not healthy for me at this time

circle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 2/21/03 7:03:16 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(2/21/03 7:52 pm)
Reply
rereading........a guest says you answered
Chuckle Chela,

I am rereading you posts in this thread.
A close friend who is only a guest here, says you have responded that Ronald [Vishwu] didn't answer.

Sorry

So much though for negotiating :\

circle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 2/21/03 7:52:53 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(2/21/03 8:02 pm)
Reply
Re: rereading........a guest says you answered
Yes I see Chuckle Chela, you got no answer from Ronald [Vishwa], now my confusion is hearing that he should be flooded with letters, and Ronald, a man who didn't respond to your heart-felt letter

sorry I am so confused and emotional, as an srfaholic, i am spewing pain about freely, and will continue with the 12 steps and hope to be a less painful read on this board

and love divine mother

and ask Jananda, monk in India if his autobiography can be shared with you all, a man giving kriya, deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply, perhaps even deepest in PY's lineage

circle

chela2020
Registered User
(2/22/03 3:45 am)
Reply
Re: rereading........a guest says you answered
chuckle chela,

I would like to know if Br. Vishwananada answered your letter too. But my feeling is that he didn't, because I don't expect it of him. I was actually surprised that Daya wrote back to me once. We are sending him the letter either way.

soulcircle,

I added your comment, and it fits well in there after all.

Borg,

I edited your post, so please make sure the editing was done correctly. Thanks.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/22/03 4:24:42 am
chela2020
Registered User
(2/22/03 9:12 am)
Reply
Re: include three suggestions
How many think that soulcircle's funny warning should be placed at the beginning of the letter?


WARNING: Reading this publication has been shown to cause a variety of adverse side effects including, but not limited to, drowsiness, sleeplessness, headaches, nausea, euphoria, depression and low self-esteem, narcissistic behavior and an exaggerated sense of self importance, warts, abdominal cramps, short- and long-term memory loss, nearsightedness and hang ups about drinking caffeine. Do not drive or operate heavy machinery after reading. Avoid heavy lifting and independent thinking. Not for people without a good sense of humor. It is highly recommended that you read George Orwell’s Animal Farm prior to this publication.

chela2020
Registered User
(2/22/03 9:17 am)
Reply
vishwananda letter
Thank you all for helping Borg and I compose this letter. Thank you also Borg for helping me.

We still have time for editing of the letter and anyone who would also like to post something.

KS, Did you have a chance to reread the post on monastics, and if anyone else would like to read it and see if it shoudl stand as it is. It wasn't KS's post, just one that she referred to. KS were you a monastic? Maybe it should just be something left up to monastics to edit since they know the conditions there.





chuckle chela
Registered User
(2/22/03 2:55 pm)
Reply
Re: rereading........a guest says you answered
Chela2020, thanks for the editing. It looks good, except for my spelling mistake in the second last paragraph. I put an "e" after the "t" in assistance instead of an "a."

To clarify about a response from Vishwananda. No, I have not yet received a written reply specifically from him. I was told that it would take a long, long time to get a reply from him, longer than responses from Mother Center generally take (which, at about two to three months, is already very long).

I'm not holding my breath, and I don't really care if I get a response. I've said what I wanted to say and I'm hopeful there will be changes. Beyond that, I've let it go, insofar as I've been able to.

Yes, chela2020, I think it's a good thing to send the letter, regardless of a response. I certainly don't expect Vishwananda to respond to a letter from the Walrus, unless you're putting your own name and a return address on it.

BTW, I like your introductory paragraphs. Great job!

username
Registered User
(2/22/03 4:42 pm)
Reply
What's the point?
What is the point of sending a letter, when SRF already is reading the Walrus board?

chela2020
Registered User
(2/22/03 5:05 pm)
Reply
Re: What's the point?
Username,

Probably just more official to send a letter, but then how do we know for sure that SRF is watching over us like hawks? They probably do.

Okay, the Warning comment won't be sent, but it sure was funny.

Chuckle chela,

I will correct your mistakes.

I was thinking of putting my name and return address on the letter. What harm could it cause? That is a serious question.

Edited by: chela2020 at: 2/22/03 5:07:30 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(2/22/03 9:40 pm)
Reply
username
Quote:
What is the point of sending a letter, when SRF already is reading the Walrus board?


i agree with your comment above.
wonder how this might be answered by some in this thread

circle

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/22/03 11:09 pm)
Reply
DENIAL ..what do others think?
Guests and All,

I would like the quote below in the introduction to this letter going to Ronald.

I believe we need to get real about denial

hard earned tithes are being spent on accountants and decades of lawyers, while robed magicians speak of voluntary leagues, getting more to volunteer, having those interested in being monastics come forward....while wonderful nuns and monks speak of meditation, meditation, kriya, kriya......

the quote is here below, is by Musicman and is from How the SRF experience holds our thinking hostage thread:

Quote:
Personally, I agree with Winston Churchill: "Democracy is the most imperfect form of government ever devised by man, except for every other system that has been tried." Someone should write this on a piece of paper, put it in a bottle, and float it across the ocean of denial to SRFland, where it may resonate and do some good. But I freely admit my pessimism.


soulcircle

Edited by: soulcircle at: 2/22/03 11:10:10 pm
soulcircle
Registered User
(2/23/03 12:11 am)
Reply
HAVE FUN
Guests and All,

Have fun.... vishwananda@Yogananda-srf.org

once again, who pushed soulcircle's button?

soulcircle

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/23/03 1:17 am)
Reply
please include this item
Guests and All,

Please include this:

Ronald, in reading the following quote from writer Raja Begum on the srf walrus board you will see the idea presented that some fit into the culture of srf and some don't. The culture is even labelled a "Guradian" culture.

Ronald, how might more people, even idealists be included, so that idealists and other types that are "not fitting in" might be able to be to "fit" in?

from Raga Begum we read:

Quote:
Are you abstract, intuitive and imaginative in your thinking? Are you friendly and find yourself concerned with how people feel about themselves? If so, you might be a member of that small category of people (10 %) who David Keirsey calls "The Idealist" temperament.

SRF is a microcosm of the greater world. In our midst we find various temperaments. Keirsey, in his landmark book titled "Please Understand Me II: Temperament, Character, Intelligence," thoroughly describes four temperament types which constitute the family of man: The Guardians (40% -45% of the population), The Artisans (35% - 40%), The Idealists (8% - 10%), and The Rationals (5%-7%).

More than the other three types, The Idealists are uniquely concerned with issues of authenticity. In fact, their very self-confidence is based on how much they are allowed to strive for and attain it. In an environment which stifles personal creative expression, the mutual exhange of ideas, and the opportunity to intitiate meaningful change, the Idealist becomes numb and estranged from himself like a fish out of water.

SRF is an organization which for the moment is run primarily by Guardians. Guardians tend to feel secure when there is a high degree of compliance among its members. The idea of people striving for authenticity and individual expression is threatening to stability-seeking Guardians. Clearly the two are each others' opposites. And when opposites have to live, work and worship together, there will either be an exchange of the best each has to offer or there will be friction and polarization.

It is the Idealists who seem to understand keenest of all how a disproportionately high emphasis on monastic thinking in the SRF teachings has created the most inhospitable environment for their own self-evolution. Consider the following analogy: Suppose we were to liken SRF to a plot of soil in which certain plants will be grown. Before we plant, we need to know the pH balance of the soil. Most plants do best at a pH of 6 to 7 which is neutral. Some such as rhododendrum, azalies, cranberries, blueberries, and some potatoes do best in acid soils of around a pH of 5.0. Alfalfa, on the other hand, prefers an alkaline medium. Using this analogy, it is clear to see that rhododendrums and cranberries would probably not bode well next to alfalfa. One or the other will end up with a compromised development.

Attitudes, ideas, and beliefs are very much like the substance of an alkaline or an acid. Their addition affects an environment and makes it hospitable to one thing and not to another. And so in considering our beloved SRF as the principle medium in which our lives have taken root, it becomes a necessary question to ask "Has that medium been optimimum one for our flourishing? And if not, why not?"

As an Idealist, I can clearly see that the SRF environment has always been too alkaline for the good of my psychological and emotional development. For as long as I can remember, there was always this feeling that something essential and nutritive was missing. But it was more than a mere deficit that I sensed. I also detected the presence of value system which had a curiously depleting effect on me. At first I thought it was me with the wrong attitude and found plenty in SRF who were more than willing to support that theory. But then I kept meeting others like myself who complained of the same symptoms. I began to wonder what it was that linked me and so many others to the same baffling fate.

As I probed, I was destined to discover that, what many of us had in common, was a similar typology. This wasn't guesswork. I actually had my friends take the Keirsey Temperament Sorter. I administered it to my family, I recruited fellow employees, strangers, anyone who had a half hour to spare. I discussed these ideas for many hours with professionals in the fields of psychology and sociology, and I read the best supplementary books on the subject, In effect, I became an armchair expert in the field of typology and got so good at it that I can't read a novel or watch a movie without seeing how the differences in types generate most of the dramatic tension of a plot.

Knowing one's type is a surreal experience. You spot ones like yourself standing out in a crowd. So it happened in SRF that I found a tiny constituency, my type-kin, on the Walrus site and among the disenfranchised long-timers who became sickened of the status quo -- all of them involutarily prodded by their conscience to become the first rebels en masse of Self Realization Fellowship.

I see now that I was tricked into duty. When I first began this journey into my unknown self, I wanted above all to exact a painful revenge on the organization which starved me on half truths and never looked twice when I stumbled and fell. With as much zeal as I once served the organization, I now found myself wanting to subvert it, to subject it to the same experience of frustration that had plunged me into a crisis of identity and, consequently, a life altering depression.

I must admit experiencing the most intense satisfaction in vindicating myself. It was cathartic like nothing else. Like tearing down a dilapidated house nail by nail until only the foundation is exposed. The very act of sabotage was like muscle pumping in a gym -- I couldn't wait to go back and do more. I sometimes wondered who this new person was. He certainly resembled nothing like the "dear one" (in Daya Mata parlance), the sweet devotee he once was. The new person was more like a Bengal tiger with the scent of blood in his nostrils. He deserved a new name for his new life. The title I felt most accurately fit my mood: Raja Begum.

With my jaws deep in the flesh of SRF, cutting to bone and sinew, I made a discovery about myself accidentally. I discovered quite shamelessly that this predatorial bloodfest was exactly what was required of my growth. It and whatever phases were to follow were leading me onward and upward through the stages of differentiation and individuation. Facing down the gods, deposing false ones, making Matas into mincemeat, I found the Confident One long buried underneath the striations of unqualified deference and perpetual pronams. Only recently is it entirely obvious to me that one's being certain of the spiritual authority of another and the very act of putting that person above one's self are all supreme acts of fiction and projection. If someone is above my comprehension, how can I profess to know what they are? I can't. I can only know myself. The rest is fraternity. That's why Babaji washed the feet of the sadhu at the Kumbha Mela -- because there was nothing else he could be to that sadhu that would make sense. To be the almighty Babaji would have no meaning to the sadhu unless he also shared Babaji's realization. So Babaji, with a profound sense of utility, met the man where he could be comprehended best -- as a humble pedicurist!. Among lesser luminaries, it becomes mandatory for the preservation of our own authenticity that we never give anyone so much awe as to make our own selves invisible to ourselves. Thus finally confronting the the Sernior leadership of SRF and their tenets, I found myself entirely out of their spell. It happened so suddenly that I almost wondered if I'd ever been mystified in the first place.

You may find yourselves undergoing a similar transformation. After many years asleep you are finally waking up to the authentic you, and you can't understand why it had to happen under such bitter auspices. But that's a judgment. In truth the method of your awakening was entirely sensible.. How does one become authentic if he or she continues to put others' thoughts and feelings above his or her own perceptions? It doesn't happen. The only surefire way back to self-authenticity is to eradicate the supremacy of influences of anything that is non-self. This is such a beautiful way to approach God. And it in no way harms our relationship with our guru since, by definition, he is one with us. So the more we approach our essence, the more we shall find him present. The stripping down of outer influences and living authentically by my inner rule -- this is about the only form of renunciation I can practice with any sense of naturalness.. The rest seems like a masquerade of Guardian protocols. My only problem now is to consider what of SRF remains for me?

I'm going to switch from tiger talk to the subject of rhododendrons, cranberries and alfalfa. If what I am is a cranberry, and if what you are is a rhododenron, and if where we sprawl happens to be on the highly alkaline plains of alfalfahood....brother!...we ain't got a chance.. And if all that alfalfa can't see why that's a problem for the rest of us, it doesn't mean there isn't a problem. One of the most revered senior monastics told a close friend of mine that the teachings will not change and, if he didn't like it, he could find another path.. My friend is has been a long time member. So what we've got here is Mr. Alfalfamoy telling Mr. Rhododendron to get lost. But Mr Rhododendron doesn't want to get lost. So he introduces changes into the soil to make it more hospitable. Suddenly the alfalfas are in a panic while the Rhododenrons are reviving their colors. What ought to be a benign pasture turns into another Kurukshetra. . This is what SRF is becoming and will continue to be as long as some higher concilliatory intelligence doesn't enter into the picture.

I can no longer feel the same anger towards the leadership of SRF that I once did. Anger would only mean I feel helpless and vulnerable in my relationship (or lack of it) with them. Instead I feel calm, cool resolution. I know that SRF will change because I see the pieces falling into place. How was I to know that, by walking away, I would come full circle back to the center of the movement. Only this time, I feel I am uniquely giving to it something true of my soul.

What this means? A thorough reexamination of the lessons, the way the teachings are presented, and ultimately there must be some hard questions asked about the leadership and its tendency to douse every aspect of our sadhana with monastic-centric thinking. .

How do you feel? The same as me? Perhaps you are one of the 10%, If so, this world is your oyster. The more you pry at it and make it change, the more you defy that pat Guardian Dictionary definition of "devotee" and become an authentic individual in relationship to the work, the more the work becomes what it is destined to be. You are the message. Don't hold back. Is an Idealist disobedient and disloyal because he followed his Idealist dictionary and not a Guardian one? Can a bird be insubordinate to a fish? Or a rhododendron to an alfalfa?

Trust yourself -- your thoughts, feelings and instincts. There is work to be done. This is your right-of-passage.


soulcircle

soulcircle
Registered User
(2/23/03 1:25 am)
Reply
chela2020 and borg108 thank you
Guests and All,

borg108 and chela2020, we thank you.
the above post I have asked you to include will make the letter too long possibly.
one option is to start a second letter with this post above.
you will know what is best to do.

in my agreeing with username that these letters are pointless, may i explain that i am helping shape this letter, because i want to be a part of the walrus voice

it is my belief that guests reading what we wish to say to ALL, perhaps via Ronald [Vishwa], is of equal value to any communication that will in time open between srf, or reform minded people within srf, and walrus or other constructive criticism

again I thank you both and all in this thread,
soulcircle

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