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SRF Walrus

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SRF Walrus > SRF Hidden Valley Ashram > HV Horrors/Science of the Soul
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Devotee1970 Registered User (11/1/02 8:06 pm) Reply	Re: sweet dreams Psychdev, Life and religion are complicated, and I try to avoid generalities. I certainly would not not say that all SRF ministers are the same. If I implied that, it was not my intention. I also do not condemn everything about the SRF -- it has helped and is helping some people. Whether it is doing more harm than good at this point, I am in no position to evaluate. I do know that some people have been and are being hurt tremendously. Whether the SRF is similar to or different than mainstream religions doesn't really matter so much to me -- what matters to me is that there are severe problems that aren't being addressed and that people are suffering. Whether you label the organization a "cult" or not seems rather academic. I appreciate your feedback and hope you enjoy your dinner. Devotee1970
psychdev Registered User (11/1/02 9:23 pm) Reply	Re: To: psychdev <<. Whether the SRF is similar to or different than mainstream religions doesn't really matter so much to me -- what matters to me is that there are severe problems that aren't being addressed and that people are suffering>> Agree 100% about helping those who suffer and addressing the causes. But if these problems are simply part of mainstream religion (the need to transcend the ego), then maybe the solutions look a bit different: If vulnerable individuals are ALWAYS tempted to renounce personal identity (fuse with the organization, give up personal responsibility), then the focus is more on protecting vulnerability of individual devotees rather than on organizational/ministerial problems. (Not entirely, just more so). But if the problem is primarily a lot of ministers (or the church itself) trying to lure people into cult-like dynamics, that's a somewhat different problem IMHO. It requires a more radical solution. On the one hand, a focus on vulnerability means providing special counseling to vulnerable individuals, educating ministers/monastics to the dangers faced by vulnerable members, and better screening ministers/monastics. BUT if ministers (or the church generally) deliberately exploiting people, then we need to purge the ranks of ministers and change church policies. Then we can talk about SRF as a "cult". Interested in your comments on this. Edited by: psychdev at: 11/1/02 9:32:57 pm
psychdev Registered User (11/1/02 9:30 pm) Reply	Re: sweet dreams DEVOTE1970 <<I do know that some people have been and are being hurt tremendously>> Could you expand on this, giving some specific examples? I'm genuinely curious. I spent relatively little time in temples outside of HV and encinitas (too far away), so I'm curious how this plays out at your temple. BTW, if you don't mind me asking, do you still attend services? use SRF techniques? Involved in a different path (or no path)?
psychdev Registered User (11/1/02 9:46 pm) Reply	Re: sweet dreams username: Sorry to suggest you would want to devalue my statement. >>I would be interested in knowing your views on cults, and cult environment. And what is your take on what is going on with the meditation leader at your group..... >> I'm not an expert in this area but here's my impression. Cults typically led by one or a few charismatic individuals who have typical narcissistic needs for admiration ("narcissistic fuel"). They may gain this admiration, in part, by devaluing followers. They are typically expert at appearing humble and not-narcissistic! Also, such groups tend to isolate their members either physically or psychologically from the rest of the world. They can do this through geographical isolation (Jim Jones) or through sanctions against talking with other people ("you'll be damned"). IMHO all of these elements (charisma, narcissism, isolation) are necessary to a real, down-and-dirty cult of the classic type. If you are missing one element, then it's more controversial. For example, if you have a religious movement with a charismatic leader and which is isolated in monasteries--but the leader is genuinely "enlightened" (whatever that means), is that a cult? I don't think so--even if several members become so enamored/smitten by the leader that they claim to be mislead or brainwashed. This happens, of course, not uncommonly--Buddha himself tells such a story regarding a follower. Likewise, if you have a religious movement which is strongly isolated and very conformist (e.g., Mennonites), is that really a cult? Questionable, I think, because people are given the chance to decide (at age 18?) whether they want to join or not. Obviously, there's a lot of pressure to remain with family and friends, even if it's not expressed. And vulnerable people will have trouble making truely free choices. But I would have trouble calling this a cult. FWIW. Regarding center/meditation leaders--as mentioned in a couple postings, my primary involvement has been at HV. I live a long way from a temple and am also basically averse to "ceremonies and sermons". For me, HV has the huge advantage that the work is a large part of the experience and the emphasis is MUCH more on meditation, meditation, meditation rather than talk, talk, talk. (I'm biased in this regard, but that's my own orientation.) If you have specific anecdotes about ministers which feed a cult-like orientation, that would be very interesting to hear. Then we could discuss how/how not that leads to cult-thinking, if you want. Edited by: psychdev at: 11/1/02 10:01:45 pm
psychdev Registered User (11/1/02 9:56 pm) Reply	Re: sweet dreams USERDEV: <<I personally believe that the monks of SRF have also been brainwashed. >> And by "brainwashed" you mean...? That SRF is the only "true" path? That you'll never amount to anything if you leave the path? That other paths are not valid? Or do you just mean they have "peculiar" beliefs--such as believing that so-and-so is the secret reincarnation of famous person X. Or that Daya Ma is a perfected being and is omniscient? Probably some of this is true. But, at least among monks at HV, there's quite a wide range. And some of the monks are really quite nice IMO as human beings--nondogmatic, spiritual (e.g., Bimalananda). Others simply don't talk about their beliefs (e.g., Br. David) and are very dedicated and sincere seekers.
Devotee1970 Registered User (11/2/02 6:14 am) Reply	Re: sweet dreams There are many stories on this message board of people being hurt. These are the type of thing to which I am referring. I no longer attend services. I do practice SRF kriya yoga. I am not involved in any another spiritual tradtions. I do rely heavily on my intuition for interpreting, applying and in some cases, deviating from SRF teachings. Devotee1970
psychdev Registered User (11/2/02 7:48 am) Reply	Re: sweet dreams DEVOTEE1970: I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks for your thoughtful and obviously heart-felt comments. Re-reading this BB, I've pretty much said everything I wanted to say.
Devotee1970 Registered User (11/2/02 9:03 am) Reply	Re: sweet dreams Thank you, psychdev. I appreciate your insights and feel I understand you better as well. Now I shall retire with you and soulcircle and his eagle and let the dream take care of itself for a while. Goodnight. I wish you peace. Devotee1970 Edited by: Devotee1970 at: 11/2/02 9:07:24 am
chuckle chela Registered User (11/2/02 11:42 am) Reply	Re: sweet dreams Psychdev�Your posts have been wonderful and I thank you for contributing. Personally, I agree with most of what you have to say. Devotee1970 made a point that I agree with, though, in saying, �. . . what matters to me is that there are severe problems that aren't being addressed and that people are suffering.� In your responses, one of your main points (and it is one that I wholeheartedly agree with) is that we need to accept personal responsibility for our situations. Yes! But that, in itself, isn�t the whole answer to the conundrum. The point soulcircle and username and others are trying to make, I believe, is that the SRF culture contributed to their willingness to renounce their personal identities. On the whole, this was not done malevolently, nor was it even done consciously (in my opinion), but I do feel the SRF culture, and SRF leaders and teachers (and even many of the members such as myself) have unwittingly contributed to members� feelings of inadequacy and so on. We�ve all been part of a largely unwitting, unconscious, and in some ways, unhealthy dance. Again, this is not to say that SRF on the whole is bad, evil, or useless (as I and others have said, there is much that is very good in SRF). It is just that there are elements that do not serve any of us well. I don�t think that religion itself is the problem; rather, I think that SRF�s milieu is in part dysfunctional, partially because it doesn�t openly examine itself (many other churches and spiritual movements do allow, indeed, honor, such openness). One of the things we need, as you have repeatedly pointed out, is much more openness and transparency. We need to expose the dynamics that have been at play. My background is a bit different from yours in that it has been in family studies, in part examining dynamics from a social psychological viewpoint. So my biases tend toward a systems analysis. I�m certain you�re aware of the many studies in social psych that have shown the importance of the setting on the psyche. Someone mentioned the Milgram experiments. I will add the prison experiment of Phil Zimbardo, only because it is so well known and in its extremity shows clearly how the environment can have such a profound impact. You asked for specifics. I had assumed you had read the many, many specific tales that are outlined in the �Treatment of Members/Monastics� and �Specific Stories�� sections. If you haven�t, then by all means give them a read. It is those stories that convinced me that there was something going on in SRF that needed critical attention. I was genuinely shocked, largely because these experiences were so foreign to my own. One of the things I realized in my readings was that those who were physically and psychically closer to the �center� of SRF had had experiences that were vastly different from my own; nor could I discount their validity. To get you started, let me briefly outline what happened to a member of my family (I�ve recounted this elsewhere). This person was a very devoted SRF member and served in our meditation group. This person had a master�s degree in psychology and served in the administration of one of the largest universities in the country. Through some rather unique circumstances, s/he got a job at Mother Center. S/he took the job, despite a huge drop in salary, for a variety of reasons; one of the primary reasons was an eagerness to serve Master�s work. During the time s/he was there, s/he experienced repeated emotional and verbal abuse. Put downs, angry tirades, people talking behind others� backs, cutting remarks; lying about others was not uncommon. S/he was repeatedly told s/he didn�t know best, that the leaders and supervisors knew best; independent thought and analysis, discussion of projects and problems, where everyone�s input was respected�none of this was supported. These sorts of things happened continually (s/he later referred to it all as �systematic cruelty��ouch!). S/he sought out help from a senior monastic whose response was, basically, to suck it up and take it. In all the people s/he had to deal with, there was only one person in a leadership position who showed any empathy and who agreed the treatment my relative and others received was not appropriate. Alas, nothing changed. Finally, s/he had to leave because s/he just couldn�t take it any more. S/he went into therapy, which helped immensely. She renounced, not only SRF and Yogananda, but religion/spirituality entirely. Whenever s/he talks with my spouse and me, s/he laughingly says, �Still part of that SRF cult, huh? The SRF you guys experience is completely different from the SRF inside Mother Center.�
soulcircle Registered User (11/2/02 12:24 pm) Reply	psychdev now has the specifics Chuckle Chela thanks

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