HV Horrors/Science of the Soul

SRF Walrus

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Devotee1970 Registered User (10/31/02 3:06 pm) Reply	YES ChrisParis: yes.
username Registered User (10/31/02 3:27 pm) Reply	Celibacy In advance of reading my post, let me tell you that I in no way support SRF in imposing celibacy on its members - for this reason - in today's society - particularly in the U. S. - marriage is needed for more than sex: advancement in career, so that others don't think you are gay, to be included in social functions in society, to be economically able to afford to live, to have someone give you support emotionally. If one is celibate, like SRF strongly recommends, then SRF should provide the celibate with social activities, emotional support, job opportunities, assistance with mortgage etc. They do not. That leaves the celibate with NO social, economic, or emotional support. Most celibate SRF members are shunned by society and maybe even their own families. Celibacy. There are scriptural references for celibacy in Hinduism. After 12 years of celibacy a siddhi is given. If one is celibate in the true sense of the word - that means no thoughts of sex, no stroking of the sex organ, no actual sex act - alone or with others. No watching sex on tv or movies. No reading about sex in magazines. If one does not have sex for 12 years - thoughts of sex vanish. There would be no thoughts of sex in one's dreams, in one's meditation, in one's waking thoughts. These thoughts would be replaced with thoughts of God. Edited by: username at: 10/31/02 5:59:56 pm
psychdev Registered User (10/31/02 5:45 pm) Reply	Re: YES <<Hey, no one gives it to them. They impose that power.>> How do they impose it, such that you are unable to resist it?
soulcircle Registered User (10/31/02 6:28 pm) Reply	How do they not impose that power? psychdev, we have a few givens psychdev, yogananda in a lesser way daya mata in a lesser way the "unofficial mayor" at richmond (me in the past) have this "magic," these qualities, these spiritual understandings and *love* that people come for that suffering people, many of us "in heaps in wheelbarrows" come for (1)that people come and will "die" for [will follow for] _______ that is one given _______ the significant majority of people who come to srf are followers the understand the "guru-disciple" relationship (2) they are followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! _______ that is a second given.......we/they would almost sit still and shut up for a whole day if told too.....we/they would almost eat dirt if told too......we/they would almost to a person, ** thirty year members ** not know the people on the board of directors.....they would never be able to show a visitor a financial statement if asked to so we have a second given ___________ the third given is putting the first two together they are so willing to follow the srf group think!!!!!!!! the significant majority are they are so willing....you can fill in the rest .. .. .. how does yogananda now relatively dead how does daya mata, somewhat unrealized and not even among people and how do long time members i once was.... and like many, and one,who had much more contact with the newer half of people coming to srf i was once big big ego (and still am) ruling over any "still water running deep" fill in the rest all together now (3) how do they not impose that power?????? since they are clearly not empowering people agreed? they are not empowering people! how do they not end up in full power over archetypal followers Jung has shown us our third given Vishnuananda and a few others are the wizard of oz this "board" has walked behind the curtain others have not, and don't care to the people who choose to follow are in awe and it is a given many will follow til they die it is a given that the wizard of oz has no means to not impose that power we know the wizard and some like me (in my case my wife of 22 years) know followers within our own families in this world there is room for all in our heart of hearts, there is understanding and love for all soulcircle Edited by: soulcircle at: 10/31/02 6:31:01 pm
Devotee1970 Registered User (10/31/02 6:37 pm) Reply	Re: Celibacy I do not disagree that celibacy is right for certain people under certain circumstances. There are indeed many scriptual references to the benefits of the practice. The thing that saddens me is that, regarding sex and other lifestyle issues, SRF has a one size fits all model. Some people try to force celibacy or other behavioral limitations on themselves before they are ready, and this leads to repression, guilt, frustration, and all kinds of abberant behaviors. It's good to challenge yourself. It's not so good to torture yourself. One thing that I've always admired about Master was that he always approached each person as an individual and met everyone on their level. He told Daya she needed to meditate more. She told Peggy Dietz that he wanted her to go to parties and mix with people. He had a brief, polite conversation with Roy Davis the first time he met him. He fed honeycakes to Bob Raymer by hand the first time he met him. He loved and treated each person like his own child. He didn't force people into a mold that didn't fit them. He wrote standardized lessons, but he didn't make people feel bad for deviating from them when they needed to in order to grow. He initiated Bob Raymer into kriya yoga and asked him to minister to people before Bob had received many of the lessons. When Bob asked him if he could have the rest of the lessons so he would know what to tell people, Master just laughed. Master had general rules and guidelines, but he recognized that people were human and that what was necessary for one person wasn't necessary for another. He saw each person's relationship with God as unique and sacred. This is what has been lost today -- the SRF guidelines in themselves aren't so bad -- only the rigid manner in which they are presented. Love isn't manufactured in a factory. Finding God isn't an arithmetic problem. I love you because I love you -- not because I am a vegetarian. A knife is a useful tool if used properly -- a dangerous one if used improperly. Don't give one to your four year old for Christmas. My thought is: try your best, live as simply as you are able to and feel inclined to, and the rest will come in time. If God wanted us to all be Avatars tomorrow, we would be. Instead, we must play out this drama. Do so with grace, do so with love, be patient, be kind. Devotee1970
psychdev Registered User (10/31/02 7:18 pm) Reply	Re: How do they not impose that power? <<This is what has been lost today -- the SRF guidelines in themselves aren't so bad -- only the rigid manner in which they are presented.>> Agree, this is from my pt of view a huge problem. And another aspect of this rigidity is secrecy.
username Registered User (10/31/02 8:03 pm) Reply	Re:three views of celibacy From Sadhus - India's Mystic Holy Men by Dolf Hartsuiker p. 71 "By rejecting sexuality the ascetic sets himself very much apart from society, for the emotional and social bonding it creates is thus avoided. Relations with women, wife and children and families would all stand in the way of the desired exclusive devotion to the deity. Celibacy thus causes a certain disinterestedness in social relations, a fundamental change in perception of one's fellow human beings." From Sex Sublimination by Swami Narayananda p.24 " When a man observes strict Brahmacharya in thought, word and deed (this can be done only after the rising of the Kundalini Shakti to Visuddha Chakra), continuously for twelve years, a particular Yoga-Nadi called Medha Nadi develops on the front side of the body corresponding to Sushumna Nadi. With the development of this Nadi the sex energy is constantly converted to Ojas Shakti. Then, there is no formation of semen in the body and consequently no loss of semen takes place. The Nadi absorbs the sex energy and transforms it into Ojas Shakti constantly, before it takes the form of semen. So until and unless the Kundalini Shakti is raised to higher centres sex-sublimation is impossible and mere abstention for long becomes dangerous and a miserable failure also." From The Practice of Brahmacharya by Swami Sivananda p.43-44 "Brahmacharya is absolute freedom from sexual desires and thoughts" ... "Mere control of the animal passion will not constitute Brahmacharya. This is imcomplete Brahmacharya. You must control all the organs- the ears that want to hear lustful stories, the lustful eyes that wants to see objects that excite passion, the tongue that wants to taste exciting things and the skin that wants to touch exciting objects." p. 57-58 "Brahmacharya is a sine qua non of spiritual life. ...It is of vital importance. Without perfect Brahmacharya, you cannot have substantial spiritual progress......You may meditate for a period of twelve years, and yet you will have no success in Samadhi if you have not destroyed the subtle lust or the craving-seed that lingers in the innermost recesses of your heart.... Brahmacharya is the basis for the attainment of @#%$ Siddhi. Complete celibacy must be observed. This is of paramount importance. By the practice of Yoga the semen becomes transmuted into Ojas Sakti. The Yogi will have a perfect body. There will be charm and grace in his movements. He can live as long as he likes. This is also known as Iccha Mrityu or death at will." p. 61 "It is beyond all doubt that a life of Brahmacharya is glorious and marvellous. At the same time, a life of moderation in the household life is equally good and helpful for spiritual growth. Both have their own advantages. You must have great strength to tread the path either way."
username Registered User (10/31/02 8:11 pm) Reply	Celibacy I do not know why this word was bleeped but if you remove the x's you will have the word I typed... Kxaxyxax
chuckle chela Registered User (10/31/02 11:40 pm) Reply	Re: How do they not impose that power? In answer to psychdev's question, "How do they impose it, such that you are unable to resist it?" soulcircle has given what I think is an extraordinary answer. If I understand you correctly, soulcircle (and my guess is that username would echo your comments), you're saying that we come wounded (deeply in some or many cases. Your image of "many of us 'in heaps in wheelbarrows' " is one of the most stunning metaphors I've seen on this board) to SRF, willing to give over our lives, our power, our love to the organization, the teachings, the guru. Why? Because we perceive that SRF/Yogananda have the answers to ending our suffering, have the unconditional love our hearts yearn for. Things go well for a time, even up to thirty or so years. Time passes by, though, and we begin to feel that something just isn't right, or we end up at Mother Center and see and experience some truly awful things. Our illusions of a beautiful world/teaching/teacher, of a wonderful sanctuary in SRF/Yogananda are shattered, in some cases, utterly and horribly shattered. You wrote: "since they are clearly not empowering people agreed? they are not empowering people! how do they not end up in full power over archetypal followers?" You have a point, my friend. What you are saying--correct me if I'm wrong--is that we surrender all our power to SRF/Yogananda and end up being betrayed. If I understand you correctly, it's a terribly compelling argument. What this means, of course, is that SRF and its leaders end up with all this power that we have given them without realizing it, and perhaps they don't even consciously know they have it. Now, it's possible they do wish to have this power, and I think you could make a case that the current leaders made efforts to consolidate power or control in the past such that they have almost complete power now. And it's certainly the case that we've given them all the power, and that may be our great mistake. I wonder, though, whether most of the [monastic] leaders in SRF realize why we have given them this power and what effects their actions can have on us? Obviously, judging from their reactions in the past, they're more or less unaware, at least consciously. Once again, this is a tragedy writ large. Once again, it points out that if SRF's leaders do wish to bring change and healing, there will have to be some fundamental changes and some huge efforts in helping to repair damaged hearts. One other question. Is some of the anger many of us are feeling towards SRF/Yogananda really anger that we feel towards ourselves for allowing ourselves to give away our power, for allowing ourselves to be betrayed (as we sense it)? Damn, didn't we all say many years ago "we won't be fooled again!" Just wondering. Oh, sorry, one more question, and I hate to ask this, so feel free to dump on me if you wish. Was all or part of this in some way almost inevitable at some point in our growth? I'm not presuming to have the answer: it's a sincere question. One word that relates to "power" is the word "autonomy." One of the things we've been seeking is autonomy, and the Walrus has been a great help for many of us in that search. Regardless of whatever else, what you said at the end of your post, soulcircle, and what has been said by so many on this board before can never, in my opinion, be stressed enough: *Quote:* in this world there is room for all in our heart of hearts, there is understanding and love for all Amen to that, brother! Karuna, karuna.
soulcircle Registered User (11/1/02 12:03 am) Reply	half way through your post chela, you are absolutely right in following my thought and adding to it up to the point of awareness of having it, i had some awareness that i had it in my limited degree as "unofficial mayor" at richmond chapel.....but the awareness was nowhere sufficient enough to act on it and tell people, you are every way as beautiful as yogananda, and to be the good in him, honor yourself, failures and all...in EVERY way as you honor him [honor him by letting him be human]......to become one with "our guru," accept this as the way to merge this thought from the "either" that one 1) we will elbow others aside in our headlong plunge into srf group think, we will die for the opportunity to be loyal disciples 2) 70 % of us are followers 3)from the above two, we give the few elite power leaders no other option, since they aren't empowering us, than to impose on us [they can chose to empower us, and wean us, or they can run riot on us, through secrecy and second class citizenship... in not weaning us, is there any way they can AVOID imposing of us, as they do on 70% of us?] in its clarity this is extraordinary, who knows where in entered my thick skull, yet the bulk of it is borrowed from yogananda-dif site, that 70% of the world is followers, given that srf is not empowering anyone, more than 90% of the people comfortable with srf are followers going back to read the last half of you post... Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/1/02 12:33:37 am
Devotee1970 Registered User (11/1/02 12:14 am) Reply	Re: Re:three views of celibacy Thank you for the information, username. Thank you also for having the good sense to be selective and for not posting the entire 100+ page Sivananda discourse on celibacy. Less is more, don't you think? To restate what I said earlier, in slightly different and fewer words: I agree with you that there is wisdom in scriptures -- and if I find a scriptural injunction that's circled in red, and Master's handwriting next to it says, "Devotee1970, please do things this way," I will take particular note of it. Of course, if that were to happen, I would still need to figure out what "this way" meant, and that wouldn't be written anywhere except in my heart. I wish you Peace. Devotee1970 P.S.-you have a good heart P.P.S.-if you ever happen to come across such a book with my name in it and specific instructions from Master, please let me know -- I would be most happy to pay for the postage to have it shipped to me Edited by: Devotee1970 at: 11/1/02 12:19:18 am
soulcircle Registered User (11/1/02 12:24 am) Reply	how can they not????? yes yes yes chuckle chela, i finished your post yes you understand, i like your pursuit of "how can they not?" i like your additional question/s we came hungry to have love, or if the rabbit, the hound of you spiritual hunger chased, is described in other words, substitute other words..be it cosmic comsciousness, spiritual glory, etc..... your call i was sold snake oil, i hurt so bad in my wheelbarrow, and in my manic moments of joy i wanted perpetual cosmic joy and love so bad, i went to the store of srf technique and loyalty willing to pay anything to "get" ..............it we would follow like none ever followed, use your own semantics, "life should be chiefly service," etc, your call adds up to is there any way daya mata and the board of directors and those close could NOT impose that power on us not, ...how can they........ how can they not??!!!!!!!!!!!!! are some of you with me? and they could have taken the road less travelled, and listened to us, realizing we have answers at times, refusing to be on a fake pedestal, even loving themselves enough to allow their humaness to be seen and they could have taken the road less travelled and instead of when they hear walrus mentioned in conversation, not sneered, but listened to suggestions, reflected upon them, and chosen the best suggestions as healthy and adopted them, until then from the chapel at mother center, from dr. martin luther king, jr's mountain top, i cry in the wilderness of mountain ranges, deserts and oceans of followers, how can they not impose their power upon you? one and all?, and wash our brains? til we are shining lights of group think? _________________ let freedom ring let freedom ring _________________ and yes this is a part of our evolution again and again "how can they not?" soulcircle amen sisters and brothers we are free...................................free at last, free at last Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/1/02 12:39:40 am
psychdev Registered User (11/1/02 6:32 am) Reply	Re: Re:three views of celibacy <<...What this means, of course, is that SRF and its leaders end up with all this power that we have given them without realizing it, and perhaps they don't even consciously know they have it. >> With all respect, that's exactly the point. No matter how poetic the metaphor, no matter how poignant the personal story, no matter who the toxic leader is, YOU give SRF the power. No one else. YOU have the choice. Time to take responsibility for your own life. If SRF or PY's teachings are not your cup of tea, then no one blames you for wanting to find a different path (or no path at all). Whatever seems best for you, at this particular point in your life. You (and some others here) seem to be going thru a grieving process--like someone who feels that a close friend has betrayed them or has died. And underlying the anger and sadness is perhaps the longing for the friendship to continue, even though that's impossible. I don't blame you for being angry, sad, and upset; this is a time for grieving and for anger. On the other hand, others may not experience SRF as a betrayal. I, for one, do not experience SRF as you have. I do not feel betrayed. And i suspect that's not entirely due to "brainwashing"-- I'm just a different person than you are, with different needs and different expectations. Edited by: psychdev at: 11/1/02 7:57:51 am
soulcircle Registered User (11/1/02 8:24 am) Reply	with all respect psychdev, your posts are on my ignore list plain and simple *Quote:* But YOU need to take responsbility for your own part of this dance. until you accept some assignment, along with handing them out, until you acknowledge that for two years people on this board have already accomplished what you come in on at this last date and suggest when you show signs of being an example, rather than an accomplice in a most crippling and out of control fear farm, when you show signs of being of some help ... [ in buffering spiritually drowning peoples' greedy, and lustful, grasp for spiritual air from the "airplane route to self realization"] ...some help......to day traders, and speculators, who short their position on the most over-priced spiritual, read fear [srf].......[in] security when you in any way show compassion for my best friend, whose bright ray of virgin innocence and unsullied sweet youth, after a 12 month window, her visit inside as a nun, walked, and having left the order... well, ........ left unsaid, in the face of your post that calls it a dance, when it has been spelled out a to z, that we don't have to look to incas, and others, for ritualized [spirit] murder, when we have human [spirit] sacrifice to the sun of "god-realized leaders, already chosen in the either" cease callin bloody remains, a dance and commence words and action that win your own respect oh that my best friend would find you emerge as a much needed healer more difficult prayers have been answered circleofthespirituallybludgeoned Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/1/02 8:35:17 am
Devotee1970 Registered User (11/1/02 8:26 am) Reply	One Spirit as Light and Shadow Psychdev, Do you know what I like about you? First, you are having a discussion with us and not an argument. Second, you have the strength of character to say what you believe is right, regardless of who may agree or disagree with you. But you surely must recognize that not all people have that strength. You are apparently a psychologist and have certainly read about Stanley Milgram�s shock experiments in which he was able to coerce most of his subjects into delivering what they thought were powerful electric shocks to another person. You are most certainly aware of Nazi Germany and how Hitler used his magnetism to gain power. You have certainly encountered people in abusive relationships who don�t have the strength to leave. It�s one thing to recognize that you shouldn�t go along with something � it�s another to have the power to resist it. I have seen the �starry eyed look� soulcircle speaks of. I had it myself for a while, and to my dismay, I have had people give me that look, even though I was never a mayor but rather only a service reader. The first time someone gave that look to me and said something extremely flattering, I thought, �Oh, how nice.� My next thought was, �They�re giving me something that belongs only to God and Master.� And this disturbed a part of me, and it excited a darker part of me. And so I have had a little taste of what Daya must have encountered when she went off to India for the first time after becoming President and received a guru�s welcome. Whatever mistakes she may have made over the years, I admire her for not succumbing to the power even more than she has. I wonder if you or I would have been able resist to the extent she has. While it�s not something to dwell upon, darkness does exist, and just as the Nazi�s used the democratic process to destroy democracy, so does darkness seek to use children of light to its end. We must have compassion for those who are unable to resist as well as we can � as I know you would agree. Your friend, Devotee1970
username Registered User (11/1/02 8:45 am) Reply	To psychdev Are you a psychologist? someone who goes to a psychologist? or someone that is into pop psychology? Have you worked with cult victims? Read any information on working with cult victims?
soulcircle Registered User (11/1/02 8:58 am) Reply	sweet dreams sweet dreams release......... when i dream of satyananda posting on this board when i awake and see psychdev's posts aspects of my waking world are but a dream ... and my silence returns as i, with several of you, await easyrose's third post in i need advice what is truth the compass of my interest in community seeking the north pole of hearing from an upset, tearful, inspiring one, easyrose, we all seek to comfort! my unuttered sweet weaving of mystery in the grail of SonofSpirit and Devotee1970's love the painting i see you two, and others, creating gives birth gives peace gives me silent symphonies of your melodies woven with jason becker's and the true angels/mischief makers that surround him and that you two, now, surround me with here soundsofsilence love'scommunion childsplay give me sweet dreams such as several of you have and sweet dreams release me from HV horror nightmares give me sweet dreams and i give you love free at last free at last to say i love you
Rosemarie7 Registered User (11/1/02 4:29 pm) Reply	Re: sweet dreams Maybe Psychdev is Satyananda? Can you hear my laughter, listen....
psychdev Registered User (11/1/02 6:05 pm) Reply	Re: sweet dreams DEVOTE1970: <<Do you know what I like about you? First, you are having a discussion with us and not an argument. Second, you have the strength of character to say what you believe is right, regardless of who may agree or disagree with you.>> Thanks for the kind words. Good insight into my personality that I highly value the three qualities you mention. Hopefully, I have not overdone the Midwestern "rugged individualism" part! You're certainly right that people vary tremendously in the ability to resist the allure of mass movements, and this depends tremendously on age, life-experience, temperament, vulnerability, and many other factors. Consequently, individual experience such mass-movements very differently, depending on their background. That much is extremely clear. And, absolutely, people who are exploited because of their vulnerability deserve our compassion and help, and not condemnation. It's incredibly hard to get out of an abusive relationship of any kind. Where I differ a bit is the idea that somehow SRF ministers are stamped from a cookie cutter mold, all of which exploit vulnerable, starry-eyed members. Ministers vary tremendously, in my experience, ranging from individuals with great personal integrity who would never attempt to keep someone in SRF if that seemed destructive, to monastics at the other end, whose own neediness and vulnerability and lack of self-knowledge results in exactly the exploitation you describe. There is a huge range. And the literature itself is often ambiguous or self contradictory or contains mixed messages. But is this REALLY a property of SRF as an organization rather than a quality of some, individuals monks? Is this exploitation woven right into SRF teachings, philosophy, and "core identity". (Side note: There is certainly an element of this in SRF--but I wonder if that's really different than ANY religious movement, in which committment to a particular metaphor or belief system is essential to spiritual progress of any kind? I'm not saying this very well.... In the world of appearances, I believe we each need to develop a personal "myth" which fuels and concentrate spiritual energies. In other words, we cannot possibly be simultaneously Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddist, Zoroastrian, and Unitarian and have an effective spiritual practice--it's just impossible, inconceivable. Therefore, we need to believe in something, beyond rationality, beyond our petty egos. But therein lies the trap. For individuals who are seeking to merge their identity, fuse their self, without maintaining separate boundaries, the potential for forgetting one's ZIP code (and identity) is great. As is the potential for exploitation. So I wonder whether the "come-on", the cult-elements in SRF are really so different from religion considered generally? Is it different from what is simply essential, intrinsic to religion as such? A very convoluted argument, but perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from. Gotta go to dinner! But will try to get back. Regarding usernames' question: yes, I'm a licensed psychologist, with clinical training at Columbia University (also 2 year post-doctoral research in psychiatric classification/epidemiology). I assume you will feel the need to devalue this statement.
username Registered User (11/1/02 7:26 pm) Reply	To: psychdev No, I don't feel the need to devalue your statement. Why do you think that? I personally believe that the monks of SRF have also been brainwashed. I would be interested in knowing your views on cults, and cult environment. And what is your take on what is going on with the meditation leader at your group.....

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