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Shadowman
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 2:17 am)
Reply 		Jung quote
"If you imagine someone who is brave enough to withdraw all projections, then you get an individual who is conscious of a pretty thick shadow. Such a man had saddled himself with new problems and conflicts. He has become a serious problem to himself as he is now unable to say that they do this or that they are wrong and they must be fought against. He now lives in the "The House of Gathering." Such a man knows that whatever is wrong in the world is in himself, and if he only learns to deal with his own shadow he has done something real for the world. He has succeeded in shouldering at least an infinitesimal part of the gigantic, unsolved social problems of our day."

(C. G. Jung)

xmonk
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 5:04 am)
Reply 		Jung
Nice quote but what's your point?

Kevin
Registered User
(9/18/01 10:51 am)
Reply 		Re: Jung quote
It is a fact: we should always turn the searchlight on ourselves! It's one of Master's suggestions, and a healthy one. But hiding behind such statement is as bad as proposing it to others with the aim of not changing oneself!
Daya Mata said we can quote the Bible (or any scripture) and make it say what we want. Everything is always in a constest. All quotes are ridiculous if we decide to hit each other with them and not listen to what really is behind them. Why are devotees even asking these questions? I have heard them from every quarter now! And from long, long time loyal devotees.
Are we dodging the real issue? that is " Why is SRF preaching what it does not practice itself?" After many years the veil of pretentiousness if fallen, is it a bad or healthy thing?

A friend of mine has one take on what is going on with SRF, he calls it the Great Guru on the top of a mountain syndrome, from the B.C. comic strip on the L.A.Times. Devotees are coming up the mountain, sweating their way up to find the "Guru"--in our case SRF--and who he finds is someone interested into everything but the devotee. Caring about beautiful gardens, Public Relations, money, retaining a respectful spiritual image, preserving the teachings, writing down Master's precious words... and ... convincing oneself it is spiritual regardless of all the mistakes made, i.e.: being not accountable. SRF has some good spiritual knowledge that it wants to pass down to the masses, the problem is: when one is convinced to have all the knowledge, to know it all, so to speak, it cannot change oneself !
There should not be double standards, where the individual is accountable and the organization is not.
So many devotees are getting tired of it! One closes one eye, not wanting to loose the perfect dream organization, not wanting to break the beautiful 'spiritual' fantasy...but closing both eyes is too much!
Knock, knock Guru, where are you?

Shadowman
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 11:12 am)
Reply 		Response to Xmonk
In no way am I trying to undermine the feelings of betrayal we all feel. This quote from Jung describes an advanced step in the process of self-integration. Before that happens, one needs to do what's called differentiation.

Differentiation is a process by which, through various means, an individual becomes conscious of buried thoughts and feelings. All the issues we have about the SRF organization our feelings of betrayal, the brainwashing and irresponsible way they weave their dysfunctional patterns into a saleable concept of loyalty to our Guru --- all this needs to become conscious. We need to shine a bright light into our closeted feelings. We need to put sharper outlines on those nebulous emotions and personal suspicions. This message board is one beam of revelation in the differentiation process.

Only when differentiation is done to a HIGH degree does integration happen naturally. Projections are withdrawn because they are no longer necessary for symbolically working out the hidden issues in the unconscious mind.

It's both fortunate and unfortunate that the majority of truths we are hit over the head with in SRF are ultimate ones. Gyanamata prays, "Change no circumstance of my life; change me." But Gyanamata was a person with much wisdom. And wisdom is gained through differentiation. SRF portrays her as a Mozart of wisdom. What then is the expectation being saddled on us? That we too must not be concerned with the behavior of others; we must be concerned only with our own conduct. There is a time and season unto everthing. The part of the story that doesn't get told is Gyanamata was wise BECAUSE she spent other lifetimes observing her inner process and making differentiations between herself and the rest of the world. What we see in her is the flowering of that process.

I think we, who are "digging in the dirt to find the places I got hurt" (Peter Gabriel), need once in awhile to remind ourselves that our most important discovery will not be whether Daya Mata is a senile puppet adminstrator, or whether Cyndi Whatshername is the real person in charge, or whether all our donations are being used to sue instead of spread truth, instead it will be "What is it about me that allowed myself to give away my power and put myself in a vulnerable position in relationship to these people for so long?" We need to dig in the dirt and find the fragments. When the full scene is reconstructed, we will come back to ourselves to ask these ultimate questions,

I am personally hoping we make better use of this message board for our collective differentiation. More people should be posting. More information should be gathered. It seems only a few among the multitudes is taking advantage of this opportunity to make restitutions. That more people are not is testimony to there being a great culture of denial in SRF.

Or apathy. I often find most people in SRF are cannot be engaged in a discussion of the issues that matter most in the world without offering pat, spontaneous, coached, parrot-like responses. It's a paradox. We've supposedly got the most advanced spiritual techniques in the world. Brother Anandamoy has said we're all "in Glendale." How can so many in SRF believe they can get to God and still be in denial? I'm afraid I'm on the wrong path if where this is all heading is more sophisticated realms of denial.

Those in charge and under scrutiny at Mt. Washington best ponder Jung's quote. Who is the enemy? Why so much paranoia and need for vindication ladies? Change yourselves. You are not defending Master's work; you are becoming an embarassment to us all. Whatever need you have for power, structure, security, or personal meaning seek in your relationship with God. You didn't become renunciants to mirror the ways of the world. You need to be more heroic. If one Mata were to admit her mistakes and make restitution the world of SRF would be transformed. The evil is not in the monastic who leaves, or the devotee who speaks out, or in Ananda or any other splinter group. All that is the way the world has always been. You are kicking against the tufts. Get real ladies. Surrender and integrate.





Shadowman
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 11:32 am)
Reply 		Make a list
As an exercise, I'd like anyone reading this post to list the many ways SRF has prevented its members from engaging in the differentiation process.

For example, I've been told monastics are not allowed to read outside literature. Reading is one ot the best whetstones for sharpening the mind and summoning up the contents of the unconsicous mind.

The monastic intropection chart has nothing to do with real introspection ("looking within"). It is a list of things to do that one checks off and evaluates at the end of the day.

Problems get buried. Core issues often are not open for discussion.

There is no line of distinction between loyalty and obedience. Is blind obedience to a fallible human being the same as loyalty to spiritual principles?

I 'd go on...but it's your turn......

Kevin
Registered User
(9/18/01 12:41 pm)
Reply 		Re: Make a list
to your eloquent reply I say: "Amen"!

Unfortunately there is a strong tendency toward transcentance and therefore dissociation when devotees confront their "shadow zones" ('broken' zones, our instinctual patterns and/or projections)(I don't know if I speak your same language). It seems to me most devotees cannot allow themselves to be 'real' because they would have to face a very sad, stark mask: I am not as spiritual as I 'd like to be. Most devotees think that because they try to meditate twice a day they are oh...so spiritual!
Unfortunately the same goes one in SRF.
For what I have gathered in 20 yrs. their first reaction is: bury the issue if it destabilizes the status quo or threatens anything at all (which has become pretty much 'everything' in the last 30 years).
Also, whenever there is an issue motivated by very good reasons supporting change, SRF freaks out and resorts to:
"it's the will of Master", it 's the wish of the directors, it's written in the Lessons, ....it is coming down from the higher ages, etc. In short it is becoming dogmatic! And if it is needed there is a miracle or mystic miracle to justify it.
I was taught that the only dogma in SRF was Kriya but it is turning out to be a pre-packaged religion like all the others! Where all the thinking has been done, every issue has been dealt with and nothing else is to be discussed! God has spoken! Everything is written in stone. And if one sincerely questions or ask...you are a revolutionary! An apostate!

There is one catch to what you suggest: first they must perceive that there is an issue, a problem. Hopefully this board will help a bit though ...in the ashram accessing it is a 'tabu' already! (at first they ignored it!)

But It is a great process for us all!


Xinsider
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 1:27 pm)
Reply 		Call for the Mata's to get real
Yes, it would be very healing for a mata to admit she was wrong, fallible, human, etc. But as one of the monks has said, what may help SRF most is more ascension ceremonies...
It is beautiful to read all the postings on this site. These questions are those that were being addressed by the Spirtual Life Committees before they were squashed. But I have no real hope for SRF to let go and grow. Psych-analyst, are you familiar with "folie a deux?" It seems to me that the Mata's long ago developed a "folie a trois or quatre." All who are not part of the intimate circle become potential tools of Satan. And every monastic who departs convinces them to be ever more vigilant and immovable. No doubt this board is having a similar effect.
But the Lake Shrine is nice, the vibes on the grounds are good sometimes. And we can all keep growing and helping each other heal, no matter what SRF does -- which will no doubt be more of the same.

Shadowman
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 3:12 pm)
Reply 		Tools of Satan
Ussama bin Laden, holed up in Afghanistan, is convinced the American government is a tool of Satan. President Bush, ensconced at the White House, is adamant that a bunch of desperate Muslims are the tools of Satan. SRF Matas, conducting their affairs within an incestuous bubble, believe many devotees of Paramahansa Yogananda are tools of Satan.

My conclusion: Any person continually preoccupied with the notion that others are the tools of Satan surely is being used as a tool of Satan.

Crog
Unregistered User
(9/18/01 7:35 pm)
Reply 		Assama?
Fifteen years ago I would have been outraged if someone compared one of the SRF Mata’s to bin Laden (or even President Bush for that matter). I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on all that I heard and saw. How close interaction with them changes all that.

Now I read it and feel that the same human frailties are behind these people. Do they realize the good will they are burning off, not to mention the devotees of Master they are pushing away from his work? Is there any karma for pushing people away from Kriya and the teachings? Or was SRF never intended to be the central focus and a new world religion?

(We should start a new thread soon, this one is getting long)

Kevin
Registered User
(9/19/01 9:41 am)
Reply 		Re: Assama?
I know many devotees are frustrated by the crystallization going on in SRF, where fluidity, understanding, compassion are almost a vague memory (the way they treated ex monks after years and years of service is loathsome!) but to be fair let at least recognize the good intentions!(true:the road to hell is paved by good intentions!). They did what they thought was the best according to their knowledge and times. Putting the names of Bush (the idiot) and a terrorist in the same sentence with a Mata is a bit too much and it will turn away many devotees who have a problem with SRF but who want to work within its frame. People we love are usually the ones who can hurt us most because we give them the power to do so, it's life!
To be positive and constractive is more effective than just trashing around ...though at times I recognize it...it is necessary to let frustration out. Maybe we should create a board called: Let the Steam out! And leave it at that.
SRF is creating its own Karma! It is not excluded from it just because it teaches religion! If it is so totally divinely guided why they lost most law suits? Why so much dogmatism? Why Mount Washington Master Plan failed ?
That is a good example: by retreating to the mountain top and ignoring others.....(good or bad they might be) they set themselves up for a good public beating, if they don't get it God will teach them like he/she does to anyone else!

Reasonable
Unregistered User
(9/19/01 10:54 am)
Reply 		Going off the deep end
Yes, Kevin, I agree. It is hard to take a board seriously when the Mata's are being even unintentionally compared to a terrorist! At the same time, the last thing we want is censorship. So I would just encourage readers of the board not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Shadowman
Unregistered User
(9/19/01 11:59 am)
Reply 		In Reply
Dear Kevin,
You wrote the following.....

"Putting the names of Bush (the idiot) and a terrorist in the same sentence with a Mata is a bit too much and it will turn away many devotees who have a problem with SRF but who want to work within its frame"

And Reasonable replied....

"It is hard to take a board seriously when the Mata's are being even unintentionally compared to a terrorist!"


Does that mean I should clarify my point? First off, I wasn't literally equating the Matas's deeds and actions with those of a terrorist. SRF Matas would never mastermind the downing of the World Trade Center. The financial destruction of Ananda and other splinter groups, yes, but never the physical destruction of buildings or bodies. Matas might look the other way as feelings get trampled and lives get disrupted. But then, what are feelings and earthly stability to a Mata? And, by that reasoning, what is a building to a terrorist? Ooops, I've done it again ;-) Well, what I mean is you can't compare the damage they do on a qualitative level.
We're still alive. The people in the World Trade Center are not.

For the literally minded, I'm being cynical and sarcastic. My original reply followed Xinsider's comment....

"It seems to me that the Mata's long ago developed a "folie a trois or quatre." All who are not part of the intimate circle become potential tools of Satan. "

Ussama bin Laden, Bush, and the Matas have two things very much in common which DO intersect on the Venn diagram of behavior and intent, and that these are...

1) All of them are leaders with true believers as followers

2) All of them follow their agendas fanatically and believe they must eliminate the evildoers

I don't know if you're researching the issues or just getting your info from the TV. All bin Laden wants is to expel the infidels from the Arab Peninsula, the holy Mecca, where Mohammed revealed the Koran. They fervently want to keep their way of life pure and the non-believers out.

Bush wants to rid the world of evil. He may have in IQ of 91, but he's found himself a purpose. Jesus will be proud.

Matas? Oh they're just trying to keep Guruji's mission on the straight and narrow. You there. You got caught up in Maya. You didn't have the fiber. You left the monastic order or the temples. It was best for the work that you should leave. So have a nice life; no need to call when you arrive at your new destination.

Crog
Unregistered User
(9/19/01 2:47 pm)
Reply 		Just read between and over some of the lines
While I find some of the things on this board humorous, disturbing, silly, and even shocking at time, I feel strongly this is the only public forum for these types of discussions. We should feel free to say what we want to and discuss things. A little maturity is required to read between and over some of the lines, but the discussion is helpful. The ability to discuss these very subjects is one of the key things missing at Mother Center at this time.

Reasonable
Unregistered User
(9/19/01 3:16 pm)
Reply 		Keep it flowing
Yes, I am glad everyone feels free to let it all hang out on this board. And I certainly appreciate Shadowman's points. But I am sensitive to the feelings of those whose loved ones were literally torn apart last week.
That said, I am glad for our diversity -- a refreshing change from the subtle and overt attempts at mind-control that characterize SRF.

oldtimer
Unregistered User
(9/19/01 3:22 pm)
Reply 		Slippery
The problem with analogies is that they are slippery and they are only helpful when they don't raise their own issues. It doesn't matter whether it might be illuminating or instructive to compare some aspects of other external situations to the SRF situation. As soon as it is done, any issues or disagreements about the *other* issue get in the way of the original discussion.

For example, there are likely to be people who disagree with the characterization of George Bush as an idiot; others who disagree with opinions of what bin Laden might want to do. These are very loaded comparisons and I don't see much to be gained from making them, even if we could do so with complete detachment.

Shadowman
Unregistered User
(9/20/01 12:39 am)
Reply 		Slip, but don't fall
It's hard to please 'em all.

Suppose one tells somebody the story about the six blind boys and the elephant. What if the person hearing that story had an uncle who was trampled to death by an elephant?

What about if I tell the story of Jesus turning water into wine to somebody who is a recovering alcoholic? Or the one about Jesus multiplying fish to a sensitive vegetarian who loathes cruelty to animals? Or is allergic to fish?

I love my analogies. I'm not a politically correct person. I tell it like it is. Mata fanaticism is a branch of the Big
Daddy Fanaticism tree (If you're a tree lover, I'm sorry. If you're a daddy, I'm sorry. If you're oversized, big, I'm sorry. And if you're fanatical about baseball. chocolate, or a rock-n-roll band and pride yourself in being a "fan", my condolences).

In my opinion, we ought to put all the fanatics of the world in a rocket ship and send them to another planet. Let them tear each other's hairs out and leave the rest of us to live in peace. Fanataloka -- illumined @#%$ planet!

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