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WhyBelieveInReligion Registered User (11/14/02 7:37 am) Reply	Teleology Why believe in religion? Religion is teleological in nature. We left the dark ages of religious and church control long ago. Why return to it? Instead of always looking for the "cause", why not BE the cause. Take control of your life. Teleological religious thought only provides us with after-the-fact explanations leaving us all to wonder "what is the cause" of this or that. BE the cause!
redpurusha Registered User (11/14/02 9:25 am) Reply	Re: Teleology True religion does exactly that, directs us to be the cause, taking us from being a student of teachings to being a master giving teachings in a new perspective. Why do away with time proven guidelines and wisdom?
WhyBelieveInReligion Registered User (11/14/02 9:32 am) Reply	Re: Teleology It is my feeling that the idea of time proven guidelines and wisdom is still taking on a very teleological view.....looking back, instead of looking forward. Indeed, we must all know where we came from so that we might have a better view of where we are going, but there is something in religion that I cannot reconcile myself with. If you look at the great promises of the worlds most prominent religions, you find that these promises still yet today, go unfulfilled. Resurrection: I do not see any dead people walking around. Enlightenment: I have yet to meet an enlightened person. The list goes on. Where is the proof in the pudding? Edited by: WhyBelieveInReligion at: 11/14/02 9:34:00 am
chrisparis Registered User (11/14/02 10:37 am) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened The idea that ressurection meant actual physical return from the grave is something of an innovation, at least from the Christian perspective. There was intense debate as to whether ressurection meant ressurection in the physical body, or in a new "glorious body" As for the enlightened, well, surely you don't expect them to announce themselves, do you? That's usually a BAD sign. But you say you've never met an enlightened person? Never seen them in their daily activities (sometimes they attract some media coverage)? They are out there, I assure you. They are everywhere. They are quiet and unassuming, and yet they always know EXACTLY the right thing to say or do to make things better for someone else. Not necessarily making them feel better, but actually qualitatively better. I would like to go on the record right here as saying that I know from experience that there is a network of people in existence who are to be found in all kinds of different places, who are conveyors of light. They are positive forces for healing, for enlightening the consciousnesses of those around them. I don't know if any of them even know they do what they do, but I sure know that they do do what they do. I doubt seriously that they think they are anything special, or that they are doing anything important. But I think they really are the leavening force in the human race.
WhyBelieveInReligion Registered User (11/14/02 11:11 am) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened Hi Chris, I agree with you that there are people in the world that are of exceptional insight, upliftment, and encouragement. Dr. Wayne Dyer and Stephen K. Hayes are two such people that I know of. I'm just not so sure that there is essentially anything more to them, than to anybody else. I take a very heavy biological view on the human drama. We are, after all, merely biological organisms playing our part in the grand scheme of it all. One might even say that we were and are specifically designed to be merely human. Nothing more, nothing less. Paramahansa has been quoted as saying that "environment is more important than will." I would like to take this a step further and say that if environment is more important than will, then biology is more important than environment. We cannot get away from what we really are.....biologically based organisms. My final thought is that if you want peace, practice peace. It is that simple. Religion and ritual will not give it to you. You simply choose to make peace with yourself and with the facts of your base nature: biology.
chrisparis Registered User (11/14/02 1:37 pm) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened Sorry. The basis of PHYSICAL life is biology. What's that? Matter. What's matter? Sub-atomic particles of energy. Biology is energy. Quantum physics amply demonstrates that energy responds to consciousness. The upshot is that although we understand biology reasonably well, we don't understand WHAT WE ARE at all. We HAVE bodies. We ARE consciousness. Granted that religion (outer practices) and rituals are limited in their effect as to who we are. THat doesn't mean that all we are is determined by biology. Good point about Wayne Dyer. I remember hearing him say that we can pinpoint the exact place in the brain from which a thought arises, and the mechanism by which it arises, but we have never been able to locate the CAUSE of the thought. If you tend to take a view of biological determinism, or materialism in general, it isn't surprising you decided kriya studies aren't for you. I imagine you also will find little to discuss with other people on this board, either, given that, despite our disillusionment with the SRF organization, we are pretty much all committed to the idea of spiritual reality.
WhyBelieveInReligion Registered User (11/14/02 1:56 pm) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened Your response to this is much appreciated. I like to call what you have described below as being "inverse reductionism." Instead of reducing the universe to mere biological determinism as I have done, you have generalized it and made it appear as though "all is one." The biological organism is an extension of the greater universe surrounding it. The marco and the micro are one and the same. Sounds good in theory. But in practice.....???
chrisparis Registered User (11/14/02 2:17 pm) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened I would say again: We have no idea how "all this" works. What science is tending to discover, however, is that there is ample evidence of the kind of connectedness I am talking about. Light: particle or wave? Why do photons invariably take the shortest route to their destination, as if they were intelligent? It is a mystery. However, the world being described by quantum physics, and that described by mystics, are resembling each other more and more, and the world described by people who subscribe to materialistic doctrines are coming to be more and more obviously inadequate descriptions. Ahhh! but it so comfortable to subscribe to a belief in a world of blind matter! If there is no spirit, there is no God. If there is no God or spirituality, there is no need for morality, for responsibility, or anything other than a Darwinian struggle for the survival of the fittest and strongest. There is no other force at work in human progress than history. Marxism is right. I can only speak for myself, but I utterly reject this view. I also think it is becoming intellectually and scientifically untenable. I certainly don't have any interest in engaging in the debate between materialism and mysticism (for want of a better word). I settled it in my own mind many years ago, so I will leave it at this. I wish you all the luck in the world with your quest for a fuller view of the universe.
WhyBelieveInReligion Registered User (11/14/02 2:33 pm) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened Chris, The Tao of Physics - Fritjoff Capra. Great book! Good luck in your pursuits as well.
Rosemarie7 Registered User (11/14/02 10:59 pm) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened WhyBelieveInReligion, You responded to my meditation in orange county group. Hate to be rude, but why would I want to meditate with someone who's an atheist?
WhyBelieveInReligion Registered User (11/15/02 5:46 am) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened Hi RoseMarie7, I'm not an atheist. I just consider myself to be very cautious about religious, philosophical, metaphysical, and spiritual ideas. Have you seen the movie "Contact" with Jodi Foster? That movie hits a spot with me. If you've not seen it, I highly recommend it to you. I think that somewhere between the realm of rationalism and empiricism lies the truth of any matter. Does this mean that there is no "spiritual" reality? No. But I think our understanding of it is off base. A famous Buddhist priest and body guard of the Dalai Lama once said, "All things are physical, if only we are broad-minded enough to accept the fact." He is not denying that there is a spiritual or "finer" realm to reality. What he does believe is that they are one and the same, not diametrically opposed to one another.
chrisparis Registered User (11/15/02 8:35 am) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened You could just as well say that all things are spiritual. If all is one, the distinction between spiritual and physical is meaningless. I tend to think that, since the physical universe is a crust on the much larger universe which is energy, vibration, whatever you want to call the subtle, that all is spiritual. Let me put that in a more satisfying (for me) way: ALL is spiritual.
redpurusha Registered User (11/15/02 12:26 pm) Reply	Re: Teleology "To me, religion is not a set of doctrines or allegiance to a group of some sort. Religion is a system of knowledge revealed by God that shows the errant soul how to return home to the Bosom of the Father. Although pervasions of all the world religions abound, real Hinduism, real Judaism, real Buddhism, real Toaism, and real Christianity -along with others I have not named - are the means for re-establishing our conscious unity with God... Union with God is not to be attained, for it has never been lost. God being infinite, where could we possibly go to be separated from Him? But the consciousness of the unity and the demonstration of it have indeed become lost to us to such a degree tha we have come to deny it in every way. The human being is incapable of his own retracing his steps and entering back into what Jesus called "the glory which I had with thee before the world was." He must have a guide. Even more, he must be given the ability to make the journey back to the Father, as well as knowledge of the way that leads back. For that he must have a religion which can effectively enable him to make the return.... Nothing is more evil more asinine than the assertion that we should make up and follow our own religion. Not that it cannot be done -it can. But to no good whatsoever. True religion is revealed from the Absolute, not worked up out of our finite and conditioned minds at the whim of ego. A good honest look at those who are tyring it should be sufficient to keep us from making the same mistake... Real religion, as the Great Messengers originally present it, is mystical religion. Real religion also includes Initiation, the giving of both the power and knowledge needed to effect the Great Work of the passage to divinity. Without it there is nothing. " -Abbot George Burke, "An Eagle's Flight" p83-84
chrisparis Registered User (11/16/02 2:16 pm) Reply	Re: Teleology It is interesting to note that Abbot Burke is a gnostic bishop and an Initiate of the Martinist Order. The empowerment and guidance he refers to in the above quoted passage refers to this.
soulcircle Registered User (11/17/02 2:23 am) Reply	a guide.......why Hmmmmmm, It seems to some of us here, that Daya Mata has been, and is an example to somewhere, high up, towards 500,000 people. George Harrison spoke of her being an angel. His words were to the effect that he found tremendous success, fame and opportunity without getting a fix on happiness. He then said, then I found Daya Mata. He spoke at length about her, more so then the Autobiography and Yogananda. This above, he was taped saying, and it was aired nationwide on prime time on a Sunday, a show called Angels 2. I believe a friend still has the tape. The show wass years ago. He is one of these hundreds of thousands who would have been better off without the awe of Daya Mata, and perhaps even her spin on Yogananda. In every faith and fold, the world over, guides briefly on their pedestals, fall hard. My mind wanders to the male-directed delivery of babies, and how much better off healthy screened pregnant woman are with female midwifes, in the home with friends when invited. All these men wanting money, fame and egos stroked, and yes some of them are sweet, far sweeter than me! So I suggest, as is in my case, that a more simple approach with heart and friends, family and community, for some, is healthy and avoids some all too common experiences of being mislead/betrayed. I will admit I am grateful, and i do love a poem like God's Boatman, that Yogananda may have written, yet how healthy is it to see him almost shining white, when he was grey, or better said, he was human? I will admit that I have no solution to the pain of love/hate or denial/healing efforts and needs on this board. I will ask, does anyone really think they can convince me that the nuns and monks initiating people since '52 aren't lying (rather unknowingly) when they say, at endless ceremonies, "Yogananda is initiating you?" Most of all, I like that story of the false guru's disciple. With time the disciple walked on water. The false guru, excitedly again reminded all who would listen how holy he was as guru, and went out upon the water to walk on it and drowned. I accept that many if not all with time, will want some mystical experience of loving oneness. I see now that the East's theology and fundamentalism has built over thousands of years, a house of cards, not unlike the Roman Catholic church. To spoon feed rituals and hope while raking in their gold, they exist, and yes there is some sweetness and charity. There is also sham and sexual abuse, mind boggling in its extent, rather like the Roman Catholic church Humbly, turning now to myself, the best of you aren't even reading this post of mine, cause it is very disrespectful, lying, slanderous, cruel, ungrateful drivel. Hmmmmmmmmmm
soulcircle Registered User (11/17/02 2:40 am) Reply	we need a guide??? a fallacy of the ages and of the 60's! Hmmmmmmm In Non-Srf Teachings and Ideals In the thread "Guidance from the Uddhava-Gita" the beginning (please find time to read srflongago's complete post) states: *Quote:* I have seen a lot of confusion on Walrus about what the traditional tenets were upon which the whole Yoga tradition of the Gita rests, particularly Lahiri's, SriYukteswar's, and Yogananda's s Kriya. Here is a short excerpt from a famous work on an excellent site. www.gita-society.com/sect...vaGita.htm The excerpt explains what is meant by renouncing the results of material action, and makes it clear that having a Guru relation was not traditionally necessary on paths to enlightenment. I was reminded of it by a reference to it on another board. and in the same post of srflongago, we see the following (again please read the actual post) *Quote:* 20. An intelligent person, expert in perceiving the world around him and in applying sound logic, can achieve real benefit through his own intelligence. Thus sometimes one acts as one�s own instructing spiritual master. Hmmmmmm Edited by: soulcircle at: 11/17/02 2:55:43 am
Lobo Registered User (11/17/02 8:32 pm) Reply	Re: the Company of the Enlightened whybelieveinreligion, The quote of Yogananda's is actually, "environment is stronger than willPOWER (emphasis mine)." And that isn't a absolute. Some people do indeed have the power to overcome their environment, but what he was saying was guidance on choosing the right environment, read: friends and associates who will support, rather than actively dissuade, one from their spiritual practices.
redpurusha Registered User (11/18/02 12:43 pm) Reply	Re: Teleology That's right, there are no true religions, no true teachers, let alone those who are perfect or know God to any degree. God? where's he anyway? -don't let anyone like Yogananda and others decieve you because its all a fraud, instead be your own god and make your own rules. There is no morality and no divine guidance... And then one day you have a personal spiritual experience that changes your life... and throws out any thoughts you might have had like the one's listed above. I just finished reading Burke's autobiography and don't recall right now of him being an Initiate of the Martinist Order (it's possible). But he did take initiation through SRF, claims to have been a student of Yogananda in his previous life, became a monk in India, and also spent many incarnations working within the catholic church and ultimately links his work, initiation, and divine guidance with the Christian Current (divine power going back to Jesus). The main goal of his mission is to further reestablish original Christianity having Yogananda paved the way... "Babaji sent Yogananda to the West at the request of the Lord Jesus to begin the restoration of Christianity, as has been said. Basic to that restoration is the teachings of the original spiritual practices of Christianity, the original 'yoga' of Christ and his Apostles which they taught to the first Initiates of Christ, but which has now been almost lost, though a trace remains alvive in the churches of the East. That is why Yogananda continually said that his purpose was to unite origninal Christianity with yoga.... When speaking of his public work he also said that within three generations it would be as though he had never come -such would be the degeneration on an istitutional level. If his hearers expressed chagrin as this statement he would assure them that his work would go on -but not under his name. "I have planted the seed." he would say in conclusion. That was because his purpose in coming to the West was to set in motion the forces that would awaken those ancient Christians who would be sent into incarnation in the West to complete the reestablishment of original Christianity. The true Kriya of Babaji and the original "yoga" taught by Christ are very similar. Though there are some differences in details of practice, they are spiritual twins since they are based on the same two foundations: the invocation of the Name of God and the subtle anatomy of the human being. In time, many of those original Christians were to have their memories of former times as Initiates of Christ stirred up by coming into the orbit of the lesser "Kriya" urging them to seek out the pure Christianity which Yogananda himself as John the Beloved had learned at the feet of Jesus and Mary the Mother." pp566-567 The author places great stress on the invocation of the Holy Name (japa or mantra yoga), and does a great deal of criticism of SRF's handling of Yogananda's teachings and kriya in particular (much like it is done here). If you notice, after you are given the AUM technique by SRF, Yogananda (or the lessons) do affirm that one can realize cosmic-consciousness by this alone -through holy communion with OM. Burke tries to differentiate the two approaches, from the Christian Current and the Hindu Current, and how they can be integrated towards Self-realization. Perhaps this post fits more appropriately in a different thread like "Non-SRF Teachings" but the teachings of Burke obviously promote religion, both inner and outer practices, which deal with the question first asked in this thread.
chrisparis Registered User (11/18/02 2:53 pm) Reply	Re: Teleology Abbot George Burke was one of the original Supreme Council of the Rose+Croix Martinist Order located in Greeley, Colorado. He wrote a novel, "The Way of the Chalice" under the nom-de-plume of Brother Basileus. This book is now rather hard to get. It deals specifically with Christian mysticism and is a portrayal of a Martinist Order. He also used to publish a gnostic newsletter from his Gnostic Orthodox church in Nebraska. Edited by: chrisparis at: 11/20/02 6:51:54 am

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