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KS
Registered User
(9/21/02 7:04 pm)
Reply 		God-Realization is inevitable?
Do most of you understand the SRF teachings to believe that your God-Realization is inevitable? In other words we will all get their, not just a few and not just those who follow a certain religion? It may take millions more life times, but the end result for all of us is the same?

If so, how does that affect your attitude toward others, toward SRF, toward yourself?

wholetruth
Registered User
(9/22/02 6:13 pm)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
I think this idea that our God-realization is inevitable but for some it may take millions of more lifetimes is useless and self-defeating and misses the whole point of the spiritual life. We shouldn't be concerning ourselves with future lifetimes but doing what we have to do now, whether it's seeing reality now (enlightenment) like the Zen Buddhists say, or forgetting self and being totally dedicated to the Divine Reality. (I'm sure there are other ways to describe the spiritual goal or path.) In each case we see others as part of ourSelf and act and love accordingly. SRF is not very significant.

Some of the others who participate on this board have said it more eloquently and more lucidly than this in other threads, and I wish they would weigh in here.

member108
Registered User
(10/12/02 7:30 pm)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
God-Realization is inevitable. I actually think the trip will be fun as long as we keep the goal in mind. Yes, it will take millions of years but it really is the only game going on. Might as well enjoy it. “With God all is fun, without him everything is everything else but fun” Yogananda.

This crap about being in Glendale is such a load. My estimate of Anandamoy went down every time I heard him tell his Glendale story, or express his complaints about life or his wish to die. He was such a weakling. He was a practiced speaker and nothing more.

SonofSpirit
Registered User
(10/13/02 6:47 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
God-realization is not inevitable if one accrues more bad karma than good karma. This is why vigilance and self-discipline over one's thoughts and actions is critical. Patanjali's eight-fold path of yoga begins with the practice of yama, moral observances which are the foundation of a spiritual life. Patanjali lists five moral observances: causing no harm, being truthful, not stealing, chastity, and freedom from greed. The second limb is niyama. Patanjali also listed five fingers of niyama: purity, asceticism, contentment, study, and devotion to the Lord. Without these karmic building blocks, there is no foundation to support a spiritual life

chrisparis
Registered User
(10/14/02 6:01 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
If you take as a starting point the notion that all is from God, and that seperation is illusion, then God realization IS inevitable. This is elementary vedantic mysticism. The idea that "if you accrue more bad karma than good karma" is simply re-varnished roman catholic christianity. If you accumulate more sin than grace you will go to hell. Hmmmf!
The more interesting idea is this. If God is eternal, then for God there is no time. There is only the fully illuminated NOW. So that means that when you become enlightened, you will have always BEEN enlightened, since for you, time will have ceased to exist. Hmmmm! That must mean that enlightenment is there for us any second we choose to "tune in to it.

SonofSpirit
Registered User
(10/14/02 11:29 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
Yes, the separation is illusion, which is a psychological condition, which is reflective of a degree of spiritual consciousness. My only contention being, however, that a sufficiently evil soul may devolve into animal form and so prefer that lowly state that he perpetuates that state of consciousness and thus does not move toward the Source. I am only saying that there can be exceptions to what otherwise is inevitable for everyone else.
Yes, I agree that choice is a catalyst for enlightment; for the choice itself signifies an enlightened level of consciousness. The obstacle to overcome, however, is one's debilitating ego or illusionary self. To overwhelm this force of maya requires great determination, great character, great will. All, of course, possess these attributes as our inherent soul-qualities. But tremendous effort is required to bring these soul-qualities forth sufficiently to overcome and ultimately vanquish our illusions. Therefore, only after having laid the groundwork is total and permanent enlightment there for us any second we choose, to "tune in to it".
By the way, chrisparis, thank you for the posting.

chrisparis
Registered User
(10/15/02 6:14 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
Thank you for thanking me! ;-)
I understand what you are saying, but I still would opine that God realization IS inevitable, even if it take ages and ages and mahavantaras and mahavantaras

crogman1
Registered User
(10/20/02 7:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
Of course God-Realization is inevitable. Do you understand nothing Grasshopper? The joy is in the trip! I imagine there is joy when we get their too?

Edited by: crogman1 at: 10/20/02 7:45:53 pm
Gitano no divino
Registered User
(10/21/02 8:25 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
It will come as no surprise that I am in complete agreement with Wholetruth (as usual). I question the whole notion of "God-realization," nay, "God." The word god, Joseph Campbell explained, is a metaphor for something that transcends all categories of speech and even thought. It is an experience, not an idea. As such, it is highly personal and subjective in nature.

What always astonished me about the SRF teachings was that they referred to God as if it were something concrete that could be realized, conceptualized, as if it were a "goal" at which someone could arrive after a long journey. Isn't it fairly absurd to suggest that one can "make it" to "God-realization"? That reminds me of a souvenir cup I bought on the summit of Pike's Peak, which bore the words "I made it!" beneath a picture of the mountain. In my opinion, this is a fairly primitive and crude form of spirituality.

Yet, people in SRF talk about God with a kind of certainty, as if they were talking about a dozen eggs or a hybrid species of plant, something whose nature was so obvious we could all agree about it. In fact, what this person or that person thinks of or conceives of as God-realization is absolutely meaningless and irrelevant to me, because my experience of "God" is inevitably going to be different from theirs. Our inner experience of some fundamental, immaterial ground of being is inevitably inflected by our personality, upbringing, cultural background, etc. No one should hold up their inner experience as the "gold standard" of enlightenment. However, that's just what some people do . . .

Daya Mata often said that people should not discuss their spiritual experiences, but this was always served up as a preludial disclaimer before disclosing her own experiences! Of course, she said she was just doing it to "help" her listeners. I never found it helpful or inspiring in the least. I think her real motivation was to establish her bona fides as an illumined sage, to impress her audience with her spiritual authority. I never found it impressive in the least.

Frankly, when someone starts talking about God-realization (especially their own!), I get nervous. Mischief is lurking somewhere in the vicinity.

KS
Registered User
(10/21/02 7:28 pm)
Reply 		God Realization state
Gitano,
I agree with much of your message. Faye is a fake and uses her proximity to Yogananda for power and position. She claims to be willing to die to serve SRF but instead oversees the most abusive of organizations. She drives people away from SRF by her example once people really see who she is, which SRF of course does their best to prevent!

You also mention the variety and individuality which must be present in the nature of God. I agree that the path to God will be infinite in variety. Kriya or Bhakti or any of millions of paths to God are certainly real and being played out all the time. SRF’s notion of itself as the Airplane Route is an egotistical joke made up by the bad ladies. Standard cult dogma. But the variety of paths to God still all lead to the same place. Our limited understanding at this time can’t imagine the true nature of what is at the end of the road. I don’t think that is some cult belief or cop out, I really think that is true.

I do believe there is really a God Realization state at the end of the road. I don’t believe anyone in a body is experiencing it. None of the senior monks of SRF, or the bad ladies, or any of the great saints. Having the limits of a body precludes the experience. However, I think there is a point we are all moving toward. It is not of this earthly level of existence, doesn’t contain much of what we would recognize. The Realization may be more an expansion of awareness rather than what many might think of as a gaining of knowledge.

Of course I have no freaking idea really! ;-)

djali123
Registered User
(10/22/02 4:28 am)
Reply 		Re: God Realization state
It was Yogananda who says in his writings (assuming they are his writings) that Kriya is the airplane route; SRF didn't invent that.

srfwalrus
ezOP
(10/22/02 4:44 am)
Reply
Re: God Realization state
It sounds like something Yogananda would say. Personally I always loved his language and the way he drew pictures of things with words. However, I am sure he meant it was one of the airplane routes, not the one and only best airplane route.

redpurusha
Registered User
(10/22/02 8:22 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
I agree with srfwalrus comments on Yogananda's way of "drawing pictures of things with words" His analogies and figurative language have been very helpful in understanding the complexities of religion and God. Far from "primitive or crude form of spirituality" yoga masters and saints often give detailed descriptions of experiences, many of which are universal (like the spiritual eye), that are guides for the devotee on his quest toward union with Spirit. Lahiri Mahasay referring to continually deeper meditation, "Digging, digging... Behold, one day the Divine Goal!"

Gitano no divino- Contrary to your comments on SRF having a fixed definition of the "goal," there is room for an infinite variety of experiencing God -along with the universal experiences that are presented by SRF. "God appears uniquely to each devotee as however his heart desires" -quoting Sri Yukteswar from memory.
What I'm picking up from reading your posts is that your opposition/dislike of SRF and the leadership (Dayamata, etc), has blured for you the authentic teachings of Yogananda and the masters. Its almost like you can never study or practice his teachings because they have been quoted somehow and used by Daya Mata and the SRF "cult." If this is the case that is unfortunate.

Gitano no divino
Registered User
(10/22/02 12:20 pm)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
I agree that it is unfortunate, redpurusha. Part of me very much wishes I could go back to "the way we were." That probably accounts for the embittered tone of many of my posts (though I do try to maintain some objectivity). I would correct only one thing you say: I do not blur Yogananda and his teachings in the haze of SRF; in fact, I believe that I see things now in the clear, hard light of day: SRF and Yogananda are one. I believe that over time that will become obvious. I think that there is a colossal case of cognitive dissonance on this board. People have been fed an image of Yogananda by SRF, and now that they have abandoned the SRF Titanic, they cling to the flotsam of the image as if it were something entirely separate from the ship itself. Actually, it is simply the one part of the ship they can't let go of because otherwise they would drown in the waters of "delusion." I've decided to swim on my own. This may be sheer hubris and egoism, and I may well not make it. But it feels like the right thing to do, and I'm going with my gut on this. Besides, I know where I left my bit of flotsam, and if I change my mind, I'll swim back to it (flotsam willing, of course).

gardendiva
Registered User
(10/22/02 12:38 pm)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
Gitano...

What you write is what I've been feeling as well. I need not go into it any further than that, but I appreciate you putting it into words.

Re: God-realization....

To me, I can't even conceive of what that means, so at this moment the question is moot. What I CAN do is be aware of myself now and now and now. That is something that is meaningful for me. What does God-realization even matter, if I am living my life moment by moment with integrity and compassion? Why is it even a question? Really, entertaining the idea is sheer fantasy, for me anyway. I might just as well say, with my efforts I will be forever healthy, or strong, or whatever, if not this lifetime, then the next or the next. It's time for me to focus on what is real for me at this moment. Perhaps I've become agnostic ;)

Gitano no divino
Registered User
(10/22/02 1:45 pm)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
I think we're all agnostics and just don't know it (I know for certain I am without "gnosis," which is what that means). Anyway, om, peace, amen to what you say, gardendiva. No one could have said it better.

chuckle chela
Registered User
(10/22/02 6:03 pm)
Reply 		Bingo!
gardendiva, I thought your comment was so true:

What does God-realization even matter, if I am living my life moment by moment with integrity and compassion?

I find myself wondering if one of the problems that developed for us in SRF, and, by extension, for the entire organization, was that we focused overly much on distant goals such as God-realization, samadhi, the number of kriyas done, the growth of the work, the spreading of the teachings and so on. We did this instead of focusing on the here-and-now, and our behavior in the present.

On both levels--the personal and the organizational--it seems that all sorts of problems could be created when one might try to justify present behavior on the basis that some distant goal (God-realization or whatever) justifies it. In our intense focus on distant (and perhaps unrealistic or unwise) goals, we could easily become blinded to our behaviors in the present, to the needs of others around us, to the suffering around us, and, as well, to the happiness of the present.

wholetruth
Registered User
(10/22/02 6:46 pm)
Reply 		Re: Bingo!
Chuckle chela:

I think you're right that SRF lost their way when they started concentrating on distant goals such as God-realization (some sort of ultimate state of consciousness) instead of focusing on everyday work such as acting with kindness, compassion, and selflessness.

Edited by: wholetruth at: 10/23/02 7:10:26 am
chrisparis
Registered User
(10/23/02 6:24 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
Dear Wholetruth,

I am sorry to say I disagree with you on this issue. Learning to act with personal integrity, kindness, compassion, selflessness is extremely important, but it is also moral improvement which should have been attended to BEFORE someone sets out on a path of discipline such as that taught by SRF.
God-realization, self realization, all are terms for the NEXT STEP in human developement (as opposed to evolution, a process over which we have no control). Being a decent, well integrated human being is a pre-requisite for this next step. Schools and orders which teach the techniques that lead to this next step aren't places for learning the basics of proper human behavior, nor are the properly places for fixing problems with the psychological structures.
A major problem faced by all schools of self developement is the tendency for people with psychological problems to enroll in them to try to fix those problems. This isn't possible, because they are attempting to use what is broken to fix what is broken. And, until what is broken is fixed, the next step isn't possible.
As to the tendency for people who haven't mastered the art of living decenlty with others going in to schools like SRF, you can see the result in the behavior of the leadership of SRF.
As to the question of God-realization, well, it may be a lofty goal, but we all have to be here anyway, so it's probably as good a way to use the time we have as any, and better than most. I also believe that the goal begins to appear exceedingly simple once one has made some progress towards it. That doesn't mean that it isn't challenging, or that it doesn't take a long time. But I think it DOES mean that once the goal has been reached, the time it took to get there no longer matters, or even exists.

wholetruth
Registered User
(10/23/02 7:16 am)
Reply 		Re: God-Realization is inevitable?
How about a compromise here?

Seeking God-realization without forgetting the pre-requisites--
treating others with kindness and compassion. You know, what Jesus taught. SRF has totally blown off the second great commandment that Jesus gave, much the same way Christian churches ignore the difficult teachings of Christ and say "believing" is enough.

Edited by: wholetruth at: 10/23/02 7:20:09 am
chrisparis
Registered User
(10/24/02 6:32 am)
Reply 		Re: Bingo!
I agree with you. The fact that a person has undertaken advanced spiritual work does not excuse them from fundamental human morality, kindness, and just good manners.
When you read the live of the desert fathers (Merton's "Wisdom of the Desert" for example) it is interesting to observe the irascibility of some of the desert saints, but more noticeable is their profound kindness, their loving willingness to forgive, and their own certainty of their fallibility as human beings. Hmmmmm. Where haven't we seen that lately?

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