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soulcircle Registered User (9/19/03 1:01 pm) Reply	the time comes when...... Sweet Friends, It will behoove you to read the hyperlinks above in exchaim and my posts to the Guru Papers! *Quote:* but the reality is that some will make a lot more unncessary, painful wrongful turns than others. Now, with an updated and clear map in one's hand (or a true guru by one's side) the road back will be much easier and enjoyable. As history of ages past show, as many if not more than half of the "clear maps or true gurus" are painful wrong turns, and the pattern (in my case of following for 30 years, and some of those around me for a lifetime) becomes a copout .......and yes an easy way, to be timid and full of guilt and without self-esteem To love with a clarity, and to be what I am, is being free versus enslaved and to dance in community in abandon of any laws and the repulsive taste of obedience to an "authority," that by the nature of the relationship and definition has an inherent lack of morality and transparency. Again see the links in the posts of yesterday. My wife asked me what I get when I go to the Richmond chapel. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"GET"~~~~~~ Is greed driving the attendance? Are we greedy for cosmic consciousness? Are places of worship giving something we lack? I told my wife I go there to give my friendship and to move in community with the few people who shed being constrained and fearful and guilty...I go there to give hugs, feeling and transparency. I don't go there to imagine some avatar in my life and bring home whips of self-loathing that i use on myself, so lacking in every quality of the example and "clear map" of PY. redpurusha these current generations live with the understanding that a satguru is necessary this comes from almost everyside it comes from Yogananda it comes from the Beatles and thousands of generatons in India have sought Sat Gurus ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ it is a "painful wrongful turn" it is a theology that rather completely pervades a lot of India the experience of the oneness of loving compassion can be managed as a carrot, as a "commodity" for thousands of years by Hindu theology some have it briefly and greatly long for it to others, hearing about it sets them on a lifetime course of "buying" it individuals pose as having it, of being in nabilkapa samadhi always, and they become the stores where you go with your "coin" of meditation, your obedience, your service and your money it is a "wrongful turn," a deadend not a clear map ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ granted this isn't a black and white thing yet redpurusha, what I hear in your words is the very defense that RESULTS in the enslavement of the world by religion, and gives the powers in the world their strength in the genocide in body and spirit of the slaves/devotees. circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/19/03 1:08 pm
soulcircle Registered User (9/19/03 1:16 pm) Reply	the time came when the "easy" way wasn't my way Sweet Guests and Friends, *Quote:* Do you believe yourself to be "spiritually blind", Redpurusha? Can it get any easier, than believing we are blind? visioncircle once one accepts they are blind, and become an "adept" in following, it will be a long month of Sundays (nice pun) before one is anything more than a follower Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/19/03 1:22 pm
dawnrays Registered User (9/19/03 3:27 pm) Reply	Re: the time came when the "easy" way wasn't my wa Well, not to butt in, but I didn't hear Redpurusha really say he was in any kind of organized religeon right now. I think he's just trying to show a sane and balanced point of view, not to mention a little respect, regard and appreciation for his path. Soulcircle, if I'm not mistaken, you're with Amachi now. Doesn't this qualify as an organization? It seems pretty organized to me. Etz, you are both a practicing Jew and also have a guru (with an organization). So, you have both a rabbi and a guru. You seem to have dedicated a good portion of your life in fact, to the practice and study of religeon and yet still seem to find the time to critisize Yogananda and srf (an organization you have never even been a member of). I believe Judism qualifies as an "organized religeon" doesn't it? Does this mean that both of you are blind? No, it means the spiritual aspirant likes company and appreciates the value of teachers and guides as well as mother figures like Amachi. There is nothing weird or wrong about that. Organizations get way off course (like srf) and it's really a shame for all! It is really a shame for monks, nuns and employees who went in hook, line and sinker too. However, I think it's a good idea, now and then, to look back on the reasons why you may have joined an organization in the first place. Was it love? Was it attraction to the teachings/guru? Was it perhaps more along the lines of an ego trip and a desire to feel safe and looked up to? I think you just have to be totally honest with yourself here (for your own sake). If you really have no love or attraction for Master or the teachings, then is it possible that there were other things besides the absolute pure and untainted desire for love and truth going on in your heart and head? I never had this completely disillusioning experience and it does seem to be common among the real "insiders". I think some may need to simply reevaluate the needs and desires they had going in before they completely denounce it. For one thing, alot of people still hold Master and his teachings in a very high regard, despite thier problems with srf. Is this not a little disrespectful to them? Perhaps it's just not the karma of Master's teachings to have "renunciants" at all. I personally couldn't care less if they all left tomorrow. The Ananda communities I think are more or less what he invisioned anyway and they seem to be doing better. I honestly think that's where the future of his teachings are. People will always have religeon. It predates Chrisitianity and Judism. If there was no God, we would make him (them) up (which history verifies). It is a deep and instinctive human drive to go back to God (ourselves) by any way or means possible! "We are all ruined Gods." Emerson Also, Soulcircle, it seems to me that if you are having trouble disingaging yourself from srf because your wife won't leave off about "the temple", you really need to put your foot down with her. I know what a pain this can be, but it is really not Master's problem if you can't handle your own wife, IMO. And etz, if Judism is what really does it for you, I suggest you continue to delve into to it and also arrange to spend more time with your own guru/organization. I don't see your issues with Master or srf or how this ever got to be a problem with you. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/20/03 7:37 am
xmonk Registered User (9/20/03 3:50 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Redpurusha, I have no desire to get into a lengthy debate with you concerning "intermediaries", but I must tell you that my findings, while inside the ashram, have shown me that these "saints" are a phenomenon created by the various religions which declare them. I have heard, ad nauseum, how there are these many illumined saints within SRF, for example. I have KNOWN these so-called saints and I can tell you, without reservation, that they are not what you think. Once again I say to you, if you want to have a relationship with God, simply talk to Him. You are His child, for crying out loud. Don't be misled by those who would have you think that you need some ritual or dogma, espoused by some "saint", to make you ready for Him. You need only to shed yourself of the baggage of religion, that keeps you so enmeshed with all the little rituals, so that you can come before Him with an open and unfettered mind. I can no longer accept the concept that God requires us to seek out some self proclaimed saint (or guru, in Yogananda's case) to bring us back to Him. My experience has been quite the opposite. God is there for us all. All that is necessary, for a personal dialogue with him, is our honest effort. Edited by: xmonk at: 9/20/03 3:53 pm
KS Registered User (9/20/03 5:20 pm) Reply	We great souls! Even if the concept of a Guru is a real concept it is too easily corrupted by places like SRF. It takes real wisdom to make the distinction between a worthless teacher and a real Guru. Most people, meaning darn near 100% of the people on any planet, are not wise enough to tell the difference between the pretenders like SRF and a real person of God. 99.999% of people are too much in delusion, myself included, to be able to tell the difference. (Which is how I got fooled by SRF) Our egos will tell us that we can tell, but we can not. The whole concept of a Guru is twisted. When you seek God so strongly that your are magnetically drawn to others at various points who can help you understand things? Yes. When you become advanced will you cross paths with special people and be able to recognize them? Yes. Will God create an organization full of ego-centered selfish people that he intends you to work through to get understanding of him? (Like SRF) Obviously not. Learn from your mistakes people. Keep your eye on the ball. Look directly to God. Accept no substitutions. P.S. If you were fooled into thinking daya mata is God Realized then you are not that perceptive and not the great soul you probably once thought you were. I include myself in that analysis of course.
dawnrays Registered User (9/20/03 7:25 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America xmonk, I think you might be under the impression that everybody in srf considers the monks and nuns "saints". This is simply not the case. It was never my impression and I never had any dillusion about it. After a few complaining letters directly to daya mata, I learned first hand this was not the case either. She seemed to me like a nice lady but also rather on the naive side (like most of them). After a few years at the temples, they (the monks and nuns) really began to strike me as being seriously out of touch and even an annoying presence at times. I actually liked a few as speakers and my minister was a very kind and well meaning gentleman, but that's about as far as it went. I wonder how your experience in the ashram makes you an authority on this subject in general though? Also, how does a personal communion with God contradict with Master's teachings? Isn't that the main thrust of them? I never got the impression he was trying to stand between me and my relationship with God, quite the opposite. I believe he is there to help. In the end though, you are right. If you have achieved this attitude (you with God or you as God), it is really the perfect and correct attitude to have. It is the natural progression of the soul and the whole reason for the guru in the first place. It's just that most people do not (because they cannot) start out that way. Why? Because they lack the inspiration, guidelines and even sometimes the knowledge that this is possible at all. Bear in mind also, that gurus have gurus and thier devotion to them does not take away from thier greatness or make them slaves. Devotion should always feel like a freeing experience and if not, there's something wrong. I won't debate over the techniques. If they don't do anything for you, that's too bad. They have helped me though and for that I am thankful to Master. dawnrays Edited by: dawnrays at: 9/20/03 8:49 pm
KS Registered User (9/20/03 8:46 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Dawnrays, My experience was different. Many people I knew at temples and certainly quite a few at convocation believed many of the monastics to be saints or near saints, certainly highly advanced. I heard them speak about some of them reading their minds and doing weird yogic power stuff. In my experience this belief was VERY common around the Los Angeles temples. So how did XMONK get the idea members thought that way? A monastic would come to believe the members thought that through their interactions with the members. No special guess work needed. I had a member tell me about an older monk who was going into a high state while talking to them. Amazing! Actually the older monk was falling asleep, something common with 86 year olds! The poor old guy must have been bored to death. He actually fell out of his chair but the member assumed it was a high experience. What delusion. If you want to believe, then everything is seen through that lens. You can quote me on that. Edited by: KS at: 9/20/03 8:49 pm
dawnrays Registered User (9/20/03 9:03 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America KS, Yea, I believe it. Don't you think that most people catch on to this eventually though (and leave?) Weren't you the one who referred to the temples as "self cleaning" every few years? I do think this attitude is a little less pronounced the further away from LA you get. The Washington, DC group (where I started out) was really pretty nice. While I was there, some of the people were really starting to get fed up with being under MC's thumb, too. dawnrays
KS Registered User (9/21/03 5:14 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America Yes, most people do eventually figure it out. srf isolates the monastics, especially the bad ladies, to preserve the myth as long as possible but still some people figure it out. There is a core of true believers at each temple who think daya mata is now God realized and have for years but most cycle through. The drop out rate is so high it always makes me laugh to hear srf say how much it is growing. Of the people taking the srf lessons about 80% only take the first set of 20 lessons. Yes srf counts them as �students� and has them on their mailing list. I personally know several people outside of Los Angles who took the lessons up to one year, got Kriya then over 20 years ago, attended a convocation and recognized the org as a cult, and dropped out. They still get the mail year after year. They still talk about the Friday night daya mata worship service and how creepy it made them feel. For myself, I didn't catch on as fast.
etzchaim Registered User (9/21/03 9:19 am) Reply	Re: the time came when the "easy" way wasn't my wa Dawnrays, first, I�m not sure how we got onto the subject of organizations and organized religion. We were discussing saints - what they are, what their value is on a spiritual path and have we seen one lately on Main Street, or something like that. I, along with a few others, pointed out that there is more value in turning the search for saintliness inward and realizing it within ourselves than there is in seeking saintliness outside of ourselves. This has nothing to do with organizations and organized religion, which more often than not, represent the �public face� of a path, or belief system, and not the actual work of walking the path. I don�t believe that any saint, even a perfectly realized saint can do anything for us if we are not honestly introspecting, working on ourselves, honestly, and disciplining ourselves, honestly. The idea that we need an outside authority to help us get it right is one of the most abused �needs� that humans have. In no way do I question the value of teachers and role models. We need those, but they are not magic. The failure to internalize the search and believing in what is essentially an attack on our self-esteem, from whatever source, is what gives the abusers their power. God is within us. Secondly, I belong to what is known as a �Chavurah� (or Havurah - the ch is a soft German ch sound). Chaver means �friend� in Hebrew. A Chavurah is a group of friends who meet together regularly or irregularly, as the case may be, for spiritual work. Our services consist of chanting and singing, meditations and discussion of Torah, not the text, but the path. Who ever want�s to lead can do so. There�s no central authority. The Rabbi leads approximately a third of the time and offers his wisdom, while the rest of us offer ours. It�s non-hierarchical and roughly the equivalent of a satsang, although, in my limited experience with SRF Satsangs, they seem to be very centrally controlled and hierachical. Friendship appears to be discouraged, and serious control appears to be exercised. This is nothing like the Chavurah I go to. Centralized authority, control and hierarchy are very much in line with the Kali Yuga paradigm for organizations, where as my little group of anti-authoritarian Jews has been dubbed the �Aquarian Minyan� by the more organizationally inclined Jews of Ann Arbor, a town not known for it�s strong attachment to centralized authority. A minyan is the quorum of ten that has been generally agreed upon among Jews to form a community and represents, mystically the Tree of Life. It�s a symbol. To say that I am a �practicing Jew� is a lot like calling a Yogi a �practicing Hindu�. Is Yoga an organized religion? Is Kabbalah an organized religion? What does that mean? When does a spiritual path �tip� over into being an organized religion? What is the difference between 'religion' and a 'spiritual path'? Is a spiritual path 'disorganized'? As for my Guru, I can�t speak for him, of course, but I�m fairly certain he would agree that following a saint, even the greatest, most purest of saints, will do nothing if the devotee is caught up in their own delusions, projections, and attachments and uses their association with that great saint as a crutch or a cure all, a way to avoid the messy business of �disillusioning� ourselves. He also spends a good deal of time reminding people that the negative programming they have, often stemming from a misuse of authority - whether it�s parental, social or organizational, religious or otherwise, personal or group oriented, is a hindrance. If you believe you are a sinner, dirty, inferior, blind or in some other way incapable or ungodly, you will proceed that way. It�s a hindrance, like any illness, and humans excel in fostering this particular illness. While running an organization, he also warns us to not get caught up in it. There is little confusion between the use of the external organization and the internal seeking of enlightenment. This is very different from SRF. We are constantly being told to seek out our own enlightenment, internally, not through his organization. The light we seek is inside, it�s God and we really do have access to it if we could only turn away from external enthrallment with magic remedies and magic people, quick fixes and our own dearly held illusions and fantasies, and seek God internally, not externally. If you are trying to accuse me of being hypocritical, you would do better to examine yourself first.
redpurusha Registered User (9/22/03 11:17 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America etz, I consider myself unenlightened, but there are degrees and frankly, I don't really know what is my level of self-realization. I do know however, that when I intellectually tried to unravel Christ's teachings (thinking for myself, as is so valued here) with all its parables and deep meanings, I could not figure them out. It was only thanks to my guru, P. Yogananda, and his Autobiography of Yogi, among other writings of his and some of his disciples, did I understand things like "when you have lifted up the son of man," and various parables and sayings. And it was only through this "intermediary" of the written teachings, was I inspired to seek God and be interested in living a more spiritual life. Only after I came in contact with P.Y.'s teachings, did I see an underlying unity between the great religions, before that all I saw was conflict. I have steadily been drawn to his teachings outside of SRF, specifically to Norman Paulsen, Donald Walters, and George Burke. With, IMO, Paulsen and Burke being more focused on Christianity, while Ananda more so on trying to maintain the teachings as Yogananda had intended them to (a balance of Christianity and Hinduism). xmonk, initially I considered becoming a monk. But fortunately, after one retreat I became disallusioned with the idea. I understand your position, having your experience in the ashram, but what I tell you here in these posts is what Yogananda teaches, and I am still in the camp of being his student. And these teachings are, as you know (and don't have to agree with): the path to complete self-realization is 50% God's grace, 25% Guru's help, and 25% your own effort. I do not hold anyone within SRF as a guru outside of P. Yogananda. Even without physical form, he has inspired me (and others) to seek God within. And like I said, if he was/is fully realized, that is "no one dwells in this temple now but God" then the formula is essentially 75% God's help and 25% your own effort. This is basically what your promoting, just a personal dialogue between you and God. The difference in our thinking, if I understand you correctly, is that you won't accept the idea of God coming to contact us in human form, to wish to help us and to have a direct dialogue with us. This rejection of God's help, happened also when Jesus came. He was unrecognized (as God's messenger), criticized, made fun of, and finally crucified. Just because God's guidance and laws given to us by prophets have been misunderstood, misapplied, twisted and exploited, doesn't make it necessary to shed oneself of them, and of religion. I am not saying you reject Jesus or Yogananda completely, just that you reject the idea of God coming to teach us in human form (by your own statements of not needing any guidance/help from other humans). Yogananda could be wrong, then I, as someone who accepts his teachings will be wrong as well. But one unfortunate and common way of thinking I see people making, is going from one extreme to another, without considering something in the middle that would perhaps, work best. A great case can be made, that the deterioration and misapplication of religion, and the subsequent negative consequences throughout history, have been caused by many who knew better and thought for themselves. Edited by: redpurusha at: 9/22/03 11:27 am
ranger20 Registered User (9/22/03 11:28 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America dawnrays writes: *Quote:* how does a personal communion with God contradict with Master's teachings? Isn't that the main thrust of them? I never got the impression he was trying to stand between me and my relationship with God, quite the opposite. I believe he is there to help. This was my experience rather dramatically on two occasions in the last 12 months. Twice, about six months apart, circumstances gave me an opportunity to spend four days by myself in an isolated area, to have it out with some of my personal demons. I had a fair amount of trepedation at first, and was chanting Master's name fairly continuously. I had the experience on both occasions that Master became transparent, passing my awareness through himself, to the awareness of something safe and solid, and even joyous at times. This was as distinct as any "spiritual experience" I've ever had. This gave me a strong sense that I can have a positive direct relationship to the Guru. In contrast to that is the refrain, seemingly reiterated by all the monastics, that you need to study "the teachings" daily to keep this connection. Increasingly I find "the teachings" as they are mostly available, to drive a wedge into that connection. If I attended to most of the teachings, I wouldn't have recognized "personal demons," at all, because that's "negative thinking." The price I've paid in the past for pretending such things, by whatever name, are not real, is a flatlined inner emotional life, aka, depression. C.S. Lewis warned us that the chief weapon of negative spirits is to convince us of their unreality. Oops! Reading other authors! That's two strikes...
soulcircle Registered User (9/22/03 12:02 pm) Reply	guests and sweet friends .. we walri have erred from redprusha: *Quote:* A great case can be made, that the deterioration and misapplication of religion, and the subsequent negative consequences throughout history, have been caused by many who knew better and thought for themselves. ~~~~ please someone get it through soulcircle's heart and brain to stop feeling and be all means don't think ~~~~ this is our failing condemned circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/22/03 12:07 pm
soulcircle Registered User (9/22/03 12:08 pm) Reply	ranger20 thank goodness you failed at obediance training I thank you for your post
etzchaim Registered User (9/22/03 12:45 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Redpursha, I don't limit "thinking for myself" to the level of intellectual understanding, there's much more to it than that, and much of it can come out of meditation. That Yogananda's teaching helped you to see more clearly is a very good thing. Each one of us is born with a history - or a collection of samskaras - from previous lifes, and when a teaching taps into patterns that have formed from your history, you will "hear" that teacher better than you will "hear" others. Your samskaras and Yogananda's teachings are 'a match', and so you can learn a lot from him. Other people will find a match with other teachings and teachers. The problems I've seen coming out of SRF is that there appears to be a belief that if someone does not view Yogananda in a particular way, then there is 'something wrong with them', and a whole 'industry', so to speak, of manufacturing a pristine image of Yogananda is being pushed that takes him out of the real world, where he is a teacher of realization and integrity, and puts him into a world where he is more perfect than any other being. The same thing happened to Jesus, and a similar type of thing is happening to the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who has many followers who believe he is the Messiah and will 'rise from the dead soon' and lead the world into the Messianic era. Many a Hindu saint has been mythologized by their followers as well. This is a very human thing, and something that cults tap into and use to gain power. A charismatic person can do great damage to people if he or she is on a power trip, or the followers of that charismatic person can do that damage, later, as we've seen. That is where the 'free thinking' needs to occur. You are not thinking freely if you ignore the teachings of wise people, but it's wise to work on developing a good level of discernment and understanding about yourself so that you know what's going to 'make you tick', so to speak and enough self-esteem to disregard those who will tell you that you 'failed' or where involved in the 'true religion' for the wrong reasons in the first place, if you should find that another teacher or teaching is what you really "hear". While you may not be drawn to every single 'wise person' or 'teaching', the ones you are not drawn to are not necessarily 'fakes'. We all need to accept that the teacher we are drawn to does not have the universal appeal that our enthusiasm tells us it should, and that our particular view of the world may be scewed towards our biases to the degree that when we disagree with someone, we may think that they are 'crazy', but it's only because they happen to have a different perspective than we do. The same tree looks different from a different perspective. The underlying 'truth' within all the teachings, is what is true, not the outer garments of symbols. We need to learn from those people who are wiser and more enlightened than us. That is good and what we are supposed to be doing. The mythologizing that occurs, and the 'tribalism' that results from each of the separate groups who are busy idealizing their teachers as the 'only true way', and the attempts to control the thinking of another person so that they fall into line with what you perceive to be the truth, are where the problems begin. We all have a tendency to do this, and that's where a bit self-introspection can help, because we all tend to get attached to our own belief systems. Foundational beliefs can color the way a person sees everything. We do tend to see what we want to see and our beliefs will tell us that what we are seeing is 'true', whether our 'interpretation' of events is actually true or not. I'm watching SRF from the outside, and seeing the attacks on my teacher and the group I'm in, as part and parcel of the 'cult' that has developed out of SRF. Siddha Yoga is big in Ann Arbor, and the same thing is tending to happen there. I ran into a woman who didn't think that any other type of Yoga was valid. There are ways in which we can arm ourselves against being taken in by a cult. If there is a large amount of control that extends into what you are allowed to read, look at, or even think, and there are attempts to control behavior that is not of the 'asocial' variety, if threats are made, or predictions of 'lifetimes of being lost' are made if one attends another church, or does or doesn't do something ritually those are pretty good signs that you are dealing with a cult. I'll tell you the story of how I figured out my Orthodox Judaism was a cult and that I had to get out of it. I had a step-daughter who was in a Lubavitch high school. One day we were discussing something - probably some science she was learning. I made a comment about the earth revolving around the sun. She looked at me in a confused way, and told me that the sun revolved around the earth. She was 18 years old and about to graduate and go to a seminary for girls in Israel. In the middle of my trying to explain what the solar system looked like, she got up, arguing with me all the way, and took out The Guide for the Perplexed, an 11th century book by Maimonides, one of the greatest of Jewish scholars and found the page where it said that the sun revolved around the earth! No free thinking here. In the 11th century, this was what people thought, and this is still what she was being taught in her school. In the course of our discussion I was told several times that I was contradicting Judaism! Several things like this had been piling up, but this is where the wheel turned in me, where the 'light' finally went on and I started figuring out how to extricate myself from what was turning into a very controlled and difficult situation. If the people I lived with in Chicago were to find out that I'm no longer Orthodox, the 'cult elements' within the religion would click in and I won't even begin to tell what some of the reactions to me would be! I figured out my Guru wasn't leading a cult when I went back after about 10 years, expecting a scolding and having to beg to be 'taken back' but the first thing that came out of his mouth was "Beware of Fundamentalists!..." The end of his first statement to me was "...especially beware of Yogi Fundamentalists"...that's helped me a bit here, wouldn't you know . Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/22/03 1:04 pm
redpurusha Registered User (9/22/03 12:56 pm) Reply	Re: guests and sweet friends .. we walri have erred soulcircle, *Quote:* please someone get it through soulcircle's heart and brain to stop feeling and be all means don't think Once again, there is a middle ground, of following those more experienced, and of one's own thinking and feeling. I don't understand why do we need to go to extremes.
etzchaim Registered User (9/22/03 1:10 pm) Reply	Re: guests and sweet friends .. we walri have erred "I don't understand why do we need to go to extremes." It could just be a natural pendulum swing. Many people are trying to balance out the feelings and issues that occur when trying to get out of (or being unable to get out of) a situation where they have been controlled by outside forces. I agree with you that there is a middle way - unfortunately, when the pendulum has swung very far over to the right, it will have to swing very far over to the left and gradually be slowed down till it stops swinging and remains in the center. The Zen Buddhists refer to the middle as a "razors edge". It's very difficult to walk! Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/22/03 1:11 pm
soulcircle Registered User (9/22/03 1:19 pm) Reply	we go to extremes to make a point redpurusha, your are right about a middle ground yet I am right about questioning authority, especially the idea of a satguru yogananda, advised by others to keep it smaller... ... built something big where he had little contact one on one with those folks, the thousands at talks, the millions that will be here in the future the bigness carries on in "the religion of the new age" going back to yogananda, he spoke a mytho-history about his "line" of avatars, and this was (is) a big sales technique .....it works i am right in challenging the thousands of years of the "law" of having a sat-guru and i brought up a chapter to read in this light, and ezchaim also referenced the same text. i dare you to discuss this at some length with us after reading it a couple times......especially one or two points.....after you are familiar with it ....and the phone is available too i am open to reading materials you suggest, other than the "teachings" we have studied ad in finitum so this ain't just extremes, this is a discussion, if you choose to enter it readin/discussion circle Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/23/03 5:24 am
etzchaim Registered User (9/23/03 5:01 am) Reply	Re: we go to extremes to make a point Soulcircle, you've displayed more guts than me, I'll learn from that! There is also the issue of interpreting our own spiritual experiences. What is universal to all systems is the "inner core" of the spiritual experience. The symbols with which we 'color' that experience differ from religion to religion, and even from individual to individual. When we experience "God", our own symbol systems are used to clothe that experience so that it becomes comprehensible to us in some way. This doesn't mean that the experience itself is "not real", but that we are using the available resources we have collected from our personal culture. Most of us are not at the level to experience God in pure formlessness, so our experiences will be shaped by our imaginative faculties - pulled from our symbol systems. This means that if I were to experience God, I would 'see' or 'feel' the event through my personal lense. My Guru could be involved, or anyone else from my lineage, or a Jewish persona could show up, like Elijah - who is typically the 'energy' that teaches Kabbalah in the Astral plane, or the Rebbe, when I was in Lubavitch. There are very rare occasions when we have experiences that are not colored by our imaginations, and the more realized a person is, the more 'Causal' the experience may be, or the more able the person can discern whether this is God energy they are 'shaping' or really a person trying to contact them. I do think that God uses our symbol systems as well. We need to be careful about interpreting. This is one of the reasons why I think it's really not a good idea to limit ourselves to learning only one symbol system, or superimposing our own symbols over other peoples spiritual experiences. I've spoken with many a Christian who seems to think that the very Jewish experiences I've had are really 'Christ', or it had to be demonic or false OR that other peoples spiritual experiences in general, not involving Christ, are catigorically demonic and false. These experiences come from God and are colored by our sometimes limited ways of understanding. They help us on our journey, but, like siddhis, it's the blessing behind the form that matters, not the manifestation of it.
etzchaim Registered User (9/23/03 5:58 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America "what I tell you here in these posts is what Yogananda teaches, and I am still in the camp of being his student. And these teachings are, as you know (and don't have to agree with): the path to complete self-realization is 50% God's grace, 25% Guru's help, and 25% your own effort. I do not hold anyone within SRF as a guru outside of P. Yogananda. Even without physical form, he has inspired me (and others) to seek God within. And like I said, if he was/is fully realized, that is "no one dwells in this temple now but God" then the formula is essentially 75% God's help and 25% your own effort." I think that if Yogananda is saying the first formula, and he believed HIS Guru was God-Realized, then perhaps your formula is taking his to the extreme? Just a thought.

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