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needthestar
Registered User
(1/1/04 11:44 am)
Reply 		Who Do Guru?
I think I've got a fair question, and if it's been discussed before, you'll have to excuse me.

There's been a lot of talk about Gurus on this board. Who is real, who isn't? How much should a Guru be allowed to control the student? etc.

My question is: Who has the right to call someone, who is out of the body, their Guru?

Before Yogananda left his body he would accept disciples or in some cases deny them such as a woman that flew all the way from Switzerland expecting to be accepted merely on the merit of distance traveled.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, before 1952 one was either a direct student of Yogananda or they followed the lessons/teachings and went to the Church.

After viewing comments such as found on the "bunny bliss" board it seems that anyone and everyone could consider themselves a "disciple" of Yogananda and that he is automatically their Guru. How so?

Wouldn't they need to be accepted by Yogananda himself?

So I can just say he's my Guru and therefore he is? Is it really that simple?

It just seems cheapened to me....and I don't mean any disrespect to those that consider him their Guru.

For example, could I call Sri Yukteswar my Guru?

Now really think about this.

SY was a tough nut. He held high expectations of his disciples...willingly tossing them out on their ears if they didn't tow the line. I certainly wouldn't have survived his ashram.

So since he is not in physical form to accept or deny me, wouldn't be it awfully convenient of me if I suddenly exclaimed: "SY is my guru!" Knowing full well he wouldn't even let me cross the Holy threshold of his residence.

The same thoughts apply to Jesus. He hand picked his disciples...how can I call him MY Guru or MY master?

Yes, some receive direct influence of the teacher...those that have been brought into the inner circle for advanced teaching, and so the rest of us more or less follow that figure's teachings. Right?

So really, the LESSONS or TEACHINGS are the Guru are they not?

I guess I'm just kind of seeing the "Bunny Blissed" beginning to act the same as those that follow Jesus in the Protestant vein. Reducing Jesus to a surfing buddy that one hangs out with and calls on when times are tough. Their teachings are kicked aside and the Guru becomes the focus, not the valuable lessons they wanted us to learn.

I don't know if I want to refer to Yogananda as my Guru. No disrespect to him at all. His teachings have been very valuable in my life. His words have taught me a great deal and I wouldn't trade them for anything in the world.

I honestly feel that those who claim to be chelas or disciples or whatever of Yogananda tend to do more harm for his cause than good. They've learned to latch onto his image, but nothing more....some, I do not doubt, meditate very little if at all.

Is it possible that in 500 years Yogananda will be strictly worshipped as a "one way road savior" and his thoughts on meditation will be lost?

Anything's possible I suppose.

What do you think?


Edited by: needthestar at: 1/1/04 11:48 am
ugizralrite
Registered User
(1/1/04 1:56 pm)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
One year ago today I was a "bliss bunny" contributor. Believe it or not my inspiration for New Years Day 2003 was to form a committee to enter (now try not to choke on your favorite beverage here) an SRF float in the Tournament of Roses Parade!

One year later and I am thinking, "Why would anyone ever take the guru concept seriously again?"

I used to think that maybe the Bengali yoga missionaries were driven by the same self-righteous zeal as Christian missionaries who feel it is their duty to save the world. Now I am almost sure of it. I am glad that these meddlers put it out there for us to examine, because how can we build our personal churches of one member without some input for our eclectic constructions.

I hope there is ongoing and further discussion here of the tenets of all faiths so that the yama and niyama guidelines can be compared and discussed. In the absence of a guru personality (probably a good thing) our collective experience becomes a surrogate.

I doubt if there is a single reliable formula for salvation. No matter how we try adhere to a program, the world is just too imperfect, but there is that mystery of mercy and grace which allows us to find our way in spite of the difficulties.

Yogananda said "God chooses those who choose God."

So in choosing a guru, choose God, that should cover it nicely.

nagchampa2
Registered User
(1/2/04 7:34 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
needthestar: i sent you an e-mail via walrus.

needthestar
Registered User
(1/2/04 11:29 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
UG -

I was a "BB" once too. I probably would have volunteered to help with the float! I admire your honesty. :rollin

Not too long after actually meeting SRF folk and talking to them on the phone I started to rethink things. I didn't "feel the love" so to speak.

When I asked the leader of the SRF group in Chicago a question, she gave me an answer (but yet NOT an answer) so I pushed a bit further - she reiterated her answer and then briskly walked away. As if...that was enough and should have been enough of a reply the first time.

It was a silly sort of question anyway, but her response revealed much more than I was expecting.

That's where just worshiping a personality falls short. It doesn't give one enough substance to get far on.

That moment spoke volumes and was the beginning of the end for me......that something was amiss.

I don't fault the teachings...but that their true meaning is obscured by infatuation of the Guru. Meditations is substituted with talking and reading about the Guru, rather than actually applying and testing his teachings.

To me a true Guru is one with his teachings - they are one in the same. So why does one need a face when they are immersed in the teachings?

If the teachings are changed or misinterpreted then the link is broken.

I like what you said so much I'll post it again:

"In choosing a guru, choose God, that should cover it nicely."

Edited by: needthestar at: 1/2/04 11:30 am
bsjones
Registered User
(1/2/04 12:15 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Choose God
Amen!

SerenityNow7
Registered User
(1/2/04 12:24 pm)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Needthestar, I've been puzzled by this "infatuation of the Guru." all along. I've never really understood this sense of personal devotion and connection people seem to have to Yogananda. I don't have a problem with him per se - it's more SRF that I feel queasy about. But I'm puzzled where does this feeling of love come from? I've felt like I was missing the boat...just not a devotional type of personality or something. People attribute things that happen in their lives such as intuitions or coincidences to him rather than to God...but in either case how can one know the attribution is correct?

UG, a float, I love it! I too admire your honesty. I was considering getting much more seriously involved in SRF the very week I found Walrus.

needthestar
Registered User
(1/3/04 7:14 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
SN7 -If I'm to be totally honest then I'll have to admit that I took to Yogananda pretty quickly.

There were times that certain thoughts or things that I had read about him made me very emotional. But are emotions a true measure of spirituality?

I remember being in a protestant church with a girlfriend years ago - all the members shouting and crying, worked up in a frenzy. It freaked me out. Were they really in touch with Holy Spirit/God, or had their emotions deceived them?

I was doing the same (to a lesser degree) with Yogananda.

I have established that he was becoming a distraction...and that I had to distance myself from him. That was not too long after I found Walrus.

I was very wounded by what I read here...why?

Because I invested so much into Yogananda. I was offended at the things I read here because I had taken the insults on as my own. I allowed them to ruin my peace of mind because my peace of mind had a foundation built on the shifty sands of the "cult of personality" so to speak.

Meanwhile my mediations were lacking. I put very little effort into them.

I read all the books and could tell you just about anything regarding his life or his disciples, but what good is that?

So I've distanced myself from it all....Yogananda, SRF, The Magazine, the books, pictures etc.

What have I found?

a refreshing, simplified meditation. Nothing convoluted, just counting breathes, but long gone are the worries of an imperfect guru, whether or not I meditating correctly, no longer expecting ANYTHING from the meditations and just being.

It's very nice and I think Yogananda would approve.

Maybe someday I'll venture back out to Hong Sau, or Kriya, but for now, for me, I'm keeping it simple....guru free.

Where does that instant love come from?

I don't know. Some might argue that it's past life recognition.

Some would argue that he's something "tangible" to grasp onto.

Some may claim that he's filling the void that most, if not all of us are missing.

Some could even say that he's as close to God as we think we might get - so we are really loving God, or at least loving the idea of being as close to God as we could get on this plane.

I see nothing wrong with your approach, and might argue that you're probably much healthier spiritually than anyone who claims to love YP deeply.

You really have no reason to love him...you've never spoke with him, looked into his eyes or received personal advice. So otherwise love might be based/influenced on mere emotions or imagination. (?)

Regarding intuitions or coincidences: Personally I'm not sure if there truly is such a thing as coincidences. The older I get the more it seems things do happen for some reason. Because my finite mind cannot connect the dots, does not mean there isn't a bigger plan behind even the smallest of events. I can't speak for others, but I do attribute those things to God, not Yogananda....and I think he'd prefer it that way as well.

Peace

Edited by: needthestar at: 1/3/04 7:17 am
dawnrays
Registered User
(1/3/04 7:14 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Well, actually this has been referred to or discussed before.

There are actually two different categories of yogi's. The bhakti and the gyana yogi. The bhakti is ofcourse, more devotional and visual. An image helps to move him or her along. These people (like me) are not intellectual and have alot of trouble with the formless concept of God.

Of course, I think the lessons and the meditation are the guru. The kriya even more so and you are not formally a disciple or a chela until you have taken kriya. This would of course bring you right back around to yourself, as the "inner attunement" is simply the kundilini energy coming up your own spine.

I of course do not agree with using Masters image to recruit subservient disciples to srf. This is a blantant and immoral use of an image and is capitolizing on many people's natural inclination towards bhakti devotion. However, that does not mean that this kind of devotion is wrong, per se. It's simply a tool to move along.

Master himself was very bhakti in my opinion. It is a old and recognized path to spiritual enlightenment.

I don't think this will ever go the way of the Christian Church concept of Jesus, though. There is just too much written down and the lessons and the meditation are very clear. The Christian teachings can be so vague and open to interpretation with all of the parables and poetry, that everybody takes a run with it. These teachings and techniques are very clear and broad and actually, free from moralizing (if you don't get involved in the organization).

One great example of the great chasim between the teachings and Master, and srf is the fact that Master was very ahead of his time on the homosexuality issue, calling it a "non-issue". srf is extremely paranoid about this, intrusive and openly prejudiced against this orientation. Prospective renunciants must fill out a quesionaire about it and are asked about it in person when applying.

ranger20
Registered User
(1/5/04 12:23 pm)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
This is a valuable thread, and some of it bears repeating. Definitions of the guru, when you formally become a disciple, loyalty to the guru, to what extent that equates to loyalty to the organization, what happens if you leave - these are big issues. The organization makes statements that wrap these questions up in fear. It is also clear that things have drifted a lot since Yoganandas day. It becomes like archeology to see what happened when, and what was Yogananda and what the BOD. Just a few related notes:

- According to the Yogananda rediscovered web site (Kriyananda) and some messages here, Yogananda gave two seperate initiations, one for kriya, and one for discipleship. In 1960, the board merged the two. Since then, getting kriya from SRF constitutes membership in "Self-Realization Church," and is said to formalize a guru-disciple relationship with Paramahansa Yogananda.

It sounded fine to me 20+ years ago, coming from a life of undisciplined chaos. Later on some of the rest of the equation begins to look pretty nasty. God gives you one and only one guru to get out of "this ocean of suffering." Leave and you get more suffering. Leave the guru's organization or be disloyal to it and you get more suffering. Even attending another church, or reading the wrong books can can be disloyalty. (I keep thinking of the mirror shade guy in Cool Hand Luke, "That'll be another night in the box!" Also, "He's making a list and checking it twice.")

- Yogananda himself wrote in a letter to Rajasi, published in the current Rajasi memorial book, in which he said "Lahiri Mahasaya is my astral guru, as Sri Yuketewar is my earthly guru. Few know this." Also he seems to have told people like Durga Ma, and Kriyananda that in a distant incarnation he was Arjuna, which would have made Krishna (or Babaji-Khrishna) his guru. So by his own accounts, it seems like "one and only one guru" for all time is not really true.

- In another quoted instance, discussing his relationship with Dr. Lewis, Yogananda said clearly "God is the guru."

- In numerous accounts of those who knew him, his response to trouble was "just give it to God."

I think you are absolutely on the right track just taking things easy, and for all of us, that seems to mean distance from the organization, and some or all of the artifacts.

This new year, turn of the seasons, brings something like a fresh breeze, and I cannot believe how far distant the SRF guru guilt thing seems to lie. What kind of hypnosis was I under. How could I start as bliss bunny, and wind up a slave to some kind of bad santa God ("step outta line, the Man come, and take you away.)?

Over the holiday I reread the passage in CS Lewis' Voyage of the Dawn Treader, where the Lion helps Eustace remove layers of dragon skins, in order to get back to his true form.

May the new year bring all of us this kind of renewal.

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/6/04 10:16 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
According to what I have been taught, Guru's make the decision about who their disciples are. The link carries over from lifetime to lifetime, but if one's Guru does not incarnate in the same plane you are in, the tradition has been to have another Guru, and there is also a past-life link here, as well (my current Guru had been a Rabbi from whom I learned in an earlier lifetime - and we've discussed this link together, both remembering parts, so we were able to 'fill in' some of the gaps). Once a disciple has been accepted, only the disciple can break the link, and the Guru becomes responsible for the disciples spiritual wellfare, no matter what happens, unless a decisive break occurs on the disciples part.

gassho
Registered User
(1/6/04 11:52 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Yoganandaji says that we may have many teachers but only one guru. How is one to understand this? In the absolute sense, there is only one guru--the supreme Self within teaching us by external means until we can see That which resides in the Heart of all.

On a more mundane level, PY's comment means that, on our quest, there is a final teacher who becomes the Sat-Guru (see Sri Yukteswar's thoughts on this in the Holy Science)--the one who reveals to us the Self. That guru (dispeller of darkness) is the end of the line. Until then everyone else is a teacher. From the AY, PY says about his guru, "With an antenna of irrefragable insight I sensed that my guru knew God, and would lead me to Him."

The two questions, then, for all who are questioning whether PY is their guru are, does he know God, and will he lead you to Him? Additionally, a close reading of the Holy Science on the Sat-Guru will raise one additional question: do you want him to lead you? You will know the answer in your heart, not in your mind.

--gassho

bsjones
Registered User
(1/6/04 12:05 pm)
Reply
ezSupporter
 Re: Who Do Guru?
That's helpful gassho. Thanks!

ranger20
Registered User
(1/6/04 12:44 pm)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Quote:
The two questions, then, for all who are questioning whether PY is their guru are, does he know God, and will he lead you to Him?
Actually, my kriya card (ca 1980 - I do not know if they've changed) says something close to "In my search for God, I accept you as my gurus..." and then names the six gurus on the SRF altar, Jesus, Krishna, Babaji, Lahiri, SY, PY. This has always set me at ease. Not only the statement by PY I quoted earlier, that he had (at least) two gurus, and was ready to chuck everything when he met Babaji, but the supposed "cross pollination" of people going on now, east being born in the west, west in the east.

If even some of us are the "old souls" we're alleged to be to have kriya, then there are some pre-existing connections, and linkage to a lineage seems a lot more "intuitive" than linkage to one specific personage.

And in my own case, I have come over the past five years to recall the Confirmation I made in a protestant church at age 12. Obviously what I understood of what I was doing was more limited than now (hopefully!) but to the full extent of my soul's ability I meant business, as much as any subsequent vow - and I felt a response. What seems to have been happening over the last several years is the strong reawakening of my spiritual deepest roots in Christianity. I have no particular desire to visit India, but I'd love to revisit some of the cathedrals in Europe.

I am grateful that the kriya pledge is phrased in a way that comprehends this. I am additionally grateful because I increasingly believe it is PY who is nudging me in this direction, after a long time practicing the basic disciplines, defogging the brain and spiritual faculties.

So easy for me to focus on what's been wrong in my association of SRF, and so here is a positive outcome.

Edited by: ranger20 at: 1/6/04 12:45 pm
etzchaim
Registered User
(1/7/04 6:24 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
I have read on the Walrus somewhere that Yogananda himself said that Babaji was his original Guru but Sri Yukteshwar was his Guru in that particular lifetime. I believe he also considered his Sanskrit teacher to have been one of his Gurus (K...something)

I have to say that I pick up a deeply rooted Guru-mystique coming from SRF. Many Indians have referred to their mother as their first Guru. Guru means teacher - or rather it is literally the word for Jupiter, the planet of teaching, and has a rough equivalent to the word Rabbi, both of which mean 'great', 'large', or something akin to that. The idea of a 'Sat Guru', appears to be rather important in all this, because your personal Sat Guru would be the one who has the connection to you, and the ability, to allow you to make your connection to God and become realized. For me, it is important to realize that it is us who do that actually connecting - we do the Realization - our Sat Guru can be of vital assistance, but it is each one of us individually who does it. Other people may feel differently.

I have said this before, but my Guru from my last lifetime did not incarnate in the earth plane. He has appeared to me Astrally and gave me a profound initiation, but my current Guru is incarnated on the earth plane and there are definate personal connections that make is apparent that he is my Guru in this particular lifetime. The relationship is far deeper than that of a teacher/student. I have had many teachers, but in this lifetime, I have only come across one Guru, though I have had at least one other Guru in the many lifetimes my soul has incarnated. Both of them are in the Kriya tradition, so I suspect that the connection to the entire lineage is there as well. In other words, I strongly agree with Ranger20.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/7/04 6:31 am
SsSsSnake
Registered User
(1/7/04 10:13 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
can I ask who is your Guru Etz?8o

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/7/04 11:02 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
The Kriyananda in Chicago, not the Kriyananda of Ananda.

www.yogakriya.org/about.htm

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/7/04 11:05 am
gassho
Registered User
(1/8/04 8:57 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Namaste bsjones,

Your welcome. :-) Based on some comments by others to my posting, I would like to provide an analogy of the path and the role of the Sat-Guru.

Our journey toward Self realization is like climbing a mountain. Little by little, onward and upward, the vistas become ever more vast. Until at last, when we reach the pinnacle, we become one with the infinite Self. On that journey there are many who travel with us for a while, and some who help us chose the path that will take us up the mountain. Such beings are our teachers. Eventually on this journey we reach the end--there is only one last step to take to reach the Breath-Taking Panorama. But there is a catch--we can't take it alone. It's too high and we need help. That's where the Sat-Guru come in. Standing at the pinnacle, the Sat-Guru reaches down in divine friendship and offers a hand to lift us up to share the summit view. It is up to us to take that hand and allow ourselves to be lifted up. It is the Guru's grace that lifts us up; it is our surrender to the Guru that allows grace to manifest. In our journey, there can only be one Sat-Guru. When the time is ripe you will find each other and there will be no doubt. It is something you will intuitively know.

--gassho

etzchaim
Registered User
(1/8/04 9:44 am)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Nothing personal, Gassho, but God is within us. It is not too high, too low, or too anything. God is within us. I can make a good argument (I'm a Jnani) that the Sat Guru is God and all you are saying is that God helps us at the end. I agree with that.

There are different ways than Bhakti, which you have described quite aptly, and the Bhakti approach is a perfectly legitimate path when truthfully walked, as are all true paths truthfully walked.

God made us myriad beings.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/8/04 9:45 am
gassho
Registered User
(1/8/04 12:00 pm)
Reply 		Re: Who Do Guru?
Namaste etzchaim,

It may surprise you to know that I also follow the path of jnana. What I have said is aligned with this response by Ramana Maharshi:

Question: What is Guru’s grace? How does it lead to Self-realisation?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Guru is the Self. Sometimes in his life a man becomes dissatisfied and not content with what he has, he seeks the satisfaction of his desires through prayer to God. His mind is gradually purified until he longs to know God, more to obtain his grace than to satisfy his worldly desires. Then, God’s grace begins to manifest. God takes the form of a Guru and appears to the devotee, teaches him the truth and, more over, purifies his mind by association. The devotee’s mind gains strength and is then able to turn inward. By meditation it is further purified and it remains still without the least ripple. That calm expanse is the Self.

The Guru is both external and internal. From the exterior he gives a push to the mind to turn it inwards. From the interior he pulls the mind towards the Self and helps in the quietening of the mind. That is Guru’s grace. There is no difference between God, Guru and the Self.


--gassho




etzchaim
Registered User
(1/8/04 12:08 pm)
Reply 		Perhaps this will clarify things
Shalom Gassho,

I'm a Jew. The only intermediary between God and me, is God. You can call God the 'Sat Guru' if you want, but it isn't necessary, because God, Guru and Self are One. God is One. There is no need for an intermediary. If you use one, believe that you need one, that is your way and that is fine. Walk your way in your truth.

Essentially, we appear to agree, except we are saying it differently and we should respect our differences and honor each other precisely because God is One. As you say: "Namaste".

Also, any time one is in the presence of a person of higher realization than they, whether they are ones Guru, Sat Guru, Teacher, or simply ones friend, one is cleansed by being near the higher vibration. This is not something that a Guru alone will affect. God's grace can manifest any way God manifests Gods grace. It does not need to be an external Guru. It could very much be the internal grace within the Self that we all have access to.

Follow your way and God bless you.

Edited by: etzchaim at: 1/8/04 12:28 pm
gassho
Registered User
(1/8/04 1:33 pm)
Reply 		Re: Perhaps this will clarify things
Quote:
Essentially, we appear to agree, except we are saying it differently and we should respect our differences and honor each other precisely because God is One. As you say: "Namaste".

There can be much beauty in sharing views. Like you, I don't believe in and "intermediary" in the sense that we are the Self. Itermediaries are in the realm of duality. Unfortunately, its next to impossible to turn within an realize the Self without a little help from our friends. There is an old zen saying, "Do not mistake the pointing finger for the Moon." The external guru-friend is the pointing finger. We still have to see the internal Moon for ourselves. It is the internal Moon that is the real guru, manifesting as the external pointing finger. Some on this board are trying understand if Yoganandaji is that pointing finger for them. My comments are offered to help them come to their own conclusions.
Quote:
Follow your way and God bless you.

See you on the mountain top. :-) In divine friendship,

gassho


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