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redpurusha Registered User (9/23/03 12:50 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America etzchaim, in God Talks With Arjuna, it reads that in the ultimate sense God is your Guru. So, if you apply this truth to the formula than it becomes more complicated. How I understand it, is that God comes to us in different ways and forms, according to our individual needs and levels of advancement. God can come to us directly within your soul or through masters. The only reason why I brought up this formula, in the first place, is to point out that if you accept the idea of being able of reaching Self-realization, which is a state of God expressing himself fully through the soul, then that person is God-like or a saint, and any dialogue with him is the equivalant of a dialogue with God Himself. This is the reason why you have the worship of saints like Mary, St. Paul, Mahasaya, or Yogananda. Obviously, we don't worship them for no particular reason; it is God coming to us in human form. These individuals were able to free themselves of body attachment, shed their ego, revealing their true imagse as sons and daughters of God, rays of the Great Sun, Father, Mother, Creator. I don't find this all that confusing, it's part of the holy science. Now, worshipping something other than a God-realized soul, or God directly, is an insult to God according to the ten commandments. Some here may find SRF breaking this rule (with the Matas, leadership), but for them to be putting the SRF masters up on a pedistal or alter, there is good reason for that. If you notice Yogananda often spoke of things in a practical way as to make it easier for us to understand, but then later or at some other time would elaborate on his teachings from a more universal and ultimate view. A biblical reference used by Yogananda to show the need of a guru is "to those he gave the power to become the sons of God." This is from memory and not exact, but power is interepreted by master as a living guru. Supposedly even Jesus had guides in the wisemen, and his own guru in John the Baptist. If this is true, then he needed guidance and help, but we don't?
soulcircle Registered User (9/23/03 1:01 pm) Reply	which have you met physically i will take your ignoring my post and invitation to discuss non-SRF literaure as a cue to bow out of this thread for now .. in parting, redpursha ....of all the people you mention in the last post, I see that none of them are acquaintances of yours as some say, SRF is the dead saint religion, but really........ you have never broken bread with these folks i knew so little of these dead people, only after 30 plus years, did I realize Tara Mata had a child and that everyone at the time (she lived on Mount Washington in a home with this child) knew this
etzchaim Registered User (9/23/03 1:33 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America Redpurusha, where are you getting that I don't believe we need teachers and role models? I have had several of them over the course of my lifetime. We need to keep them in perspective. It's a very Christian approach to worship saints. I don't. It's not the way Jews interpret the Torah, because we make the distinction between the manifested - or the levels that have filtered down through the creation - and the level that is truly God. Anything that is within the creation will have to be filtered through levels and levels of contractions that separate it from God. When we become 'Saints' we are able to transcend through our consciousness much of this 'absence of God', but we are still within the creation. This is where you and I differ greatly in our thinking. I have found that when that distinction is not made, there is a tendency for people to confuse human beings with God, even the very realized beings, and abuse the power they are given, or they transform the human into 'God', and that creates a division between the place where 99.999999 etc.% of humanity is and the 'special ones' who we will never be able to live up to because they are myths created by our need to seek perfection, which can only be found in God. To me, this is human hubris. When we transform ourselves to the point of being even remotely close to what God is, we are no longer on this plane of existence. Our energy would not be perceivable by the majority of the human race because the 'vibration' so to speak, would be too high. The terms "son of God" and "son of man" were commonly used in Jewish culture to describe a man who was a Tsaddik vs. a man who was still caught up in his own selfishness. Christians have taken these phrases completely out of context. When the terms were in use, they did not refer to people who the Jews thought of as 'God'. The Jewish people are referred to as the 'eldest son of God'. It's a way of describing someone who lives for God. Yogananda superimposed a Hindu way of interpretting onto a culture he was not from. There are many similarities, but it's rather imperialist of Christians, as well as Hindus, to superimpose their own culture onto the Jewish culture. The idea of the 'gods' within Hinduism is very similar to the idea of angels within Judaism, but they are not exactly the same. I wouldn't impose my own culture onto another. It may help to understand the 'foreign culture' a little better, or not, because it also may not be what the culture that actually USED THOSE TERMS meant. I'm not really that interested in getting into an argument over the meaning to the Torah text, what the original Hebrew actually said, as opposed to an interpretation of it, or an interpretation of a translation of a translation, or the imperialist tendencies within Christianity (which Yogananda was employed to blend with Vedantist Hinduism). To repeat, I think it is very, very important to find teachers and learn from them. No one should believe that they are THAT GOOD that they do not need someone else to guide them or help them. The problem as I see it, is that we have a fantasy notion of what constitutes the "true teacher" and by focusing on the fantasy any number of very problematic things can occur. We can be fooled by a high level of charisma, our own need to believe that our teacher is more 'perfect' than the less than perfect teachers every one else has, can lead us to some serious disillusionment when we find out otherwise, or we have to continually rationalize or believe that those who are saying 'hey this guy used to order women around' are lying, even though they actually LIVED with the person, and you didn't. We can be thrown off our path because we simply become angry when we realize we've allowed ourselves to be fooled, something rather common around here. We can be looking for the 'saints' and miss the teaching of others who have personality flaws, or their illusions don't match our illusions, so we ignore them and really miss learning something because of our stubborn addiction to our chosen 'saints' or belief that we deserve ONLY THE MOST PERFECT SAINT. We could be taken in by the mythology of a cult, and we could lose sight of the very important work that does have to be done by ourselves on the path, because we are relying on the 'saint' we worship to do it for us, etc., etc.. You talk about a middle way, but I'm not so sure that what's you really mean. Nowhere have I suggested that we not learn from teachers, and not choose a teacher that speaks to how we hear, it's our ability to keep this in perspective that seems to be the issue. People do not give their entire life over to a teacher if they have kept them in perspective. They do that when they think they've found God and are not paying attention to certain cues that people less enraptured by the idea of 'sainthood' would notice. From what you've said, I think you are very happy with Yogananda's teaching and in being his disciple. That, to me, is a very good thing. I think at this point, you have your interpretation of reality and I have mine. I think mine is more of the middle way, but that, of course, in my interpretation, it simply makes more sense to me. Edited by: etzchaim at: 9/23/03 1:41 pm
redpurusha Registered User (9/23/03 2:20 pm) Reply	Re: which have you met physically soulcircle, don't go just yet, I was at work when I wrote that last post and had to leave before I could finish. I was just about to respond to your post, no kidding. I wanted to ask you what particular literature you were referring to, because I have been very interested in outside SRF literature for a while now. As for SRF being "a dead saint religion" you have a point here, that I have never broke bread with them. But how many christians or buddhists you know broke bread with Jesus or Buddha?
redpurusha Registered User (9/23/03 3:13 pm) Reply	Re: Saints of America etzchaim, thank you for your insights into Judaism. I don't know much about this religion, especially the mystical side. I want to say I am sorry I wasn't clear in my post about who I was addressing. I was primarily presenting an arugument for xmonk on the issue of needing guidance from other people, gurus, etc. I recognize that you see a need for teachers and role models. I think you make an excellent observation about the danger of being wrapped up in one particular religion or teacher. I agree with you totally. The truth is, I think, that no one particular religion or teacher is best for everyone. Instead, as you mentioned, we all have our own religion or teacher that fits us best individually. I applaud your argument. I am not trying to convince anyone here to follow P. Yogananda. I am making a case for, at first a reply to xmonk's post, for unenlightened men and women, being better off by following experienced and successful souls, than just trying to figure out everything themselves. However, due to the predominantly dark phase of humanity in general, having so few, if any, realized souls walking around to 'break bread with', it would be wise to use discrimination and be very cautious in accepting the advice of others. As a result, we have been given printed lessons. This observation was clearly made in the Autobiography,"In the Atomic Age, yoga should be taught by a method of instruction such as the SRF Lessons, or the liberating science will again be restricted to a chose few. It would indeed be a priceless boon if each student could keep by his side a guru perfected in divine wisdom; but the world is composed of many 'sinners' and few saints. How then may the multitudes be helped by yoga, if not through study in their homes of instructions written by true yogis."? Yogananda was trying to be as practical in teaching others given the circumstances that he was placed under. He basically was saying, this is not ideal but its the best way for this time, for those group of people that were ready for it. Obviously its not for everyone and for some, its not advanced enough, for others maybe it was good for some period of their life.
etzchaim Registered User (9/24/03 4:58 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America Redpursha, sorry I got confused! I was thinking about you last night. I'm reading a novel called "Pillars of the Earth" about a 12th century Mason in England and a Benedictine monk who is a very apt representative of a Catholic saint with all the earthly and spiritual struggles going on inside him. There's a bit of that good ol' commercial titlation in it, which I tend to skim or skip altogether (the book has to sell somehow, how many people are really that interested in Gothic architecture and Benedictine monks?). There's some really great descriptions of monastic life - the good and bad side and the relationship between the Church and the Royalty/Nobles. This is the time of the first and second Henry's. You might find it interesting to read, with a few skipped parts that are really incredulous but probably made the book more popular. The author is Ken Follett and it came out in '89, I think.
redpurusha Registered User (9/24/03 6:01 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America etzchaim, I did a search on this book online and found it has become a big hit. If it's really that good then maybe I will buy an audio version. It's good to try something new every once in a while, maybe I could be missing out on something. There is a volume of great books out there, at one point I think I wanted to read every book in the religion section. There's still a dozen on my shelf I haven't touched. I've learned to be more selective. One book I've read that helped me is Crisis in Modern Thought. It is written by Donald Walters and critics say it has some philosophical flaws, but I found its central argument for 'directional values' to be quite a refreshing outlook on ethics. Things aren't 'either.... or' like 'you should be either following so and so or not.' If what you are doing right now is helping you go in the right direction, then you are doing the right thing. I was just thinking of xmonk's position and could see how someone would chose to go solo on the path due to the lack of any living fully-realized saints. Yoganana's response would be to do the next best thing in getting guidance from lessons and teachings written by true yogis. Even a filtered Autobiography, Lessons, or God Talks With Arjuna, will immensly inspire those seeking God, and help them on their journey. This is the kind of balance I think, perhaps, we all can agree on. Or not. Edited by: redpurusha at: 9/25/03 6:17 am
etzchaim Registered User (9/26/03 4:40 am) Reply	Re: Saints of America Redpurusha, depending on where you live and the library system there, you might try borrowing the book on tape. Even if your local library doesn't have it, they may have an interlibrary loan system you can get it through. I don't usually get books on tape, but I imagine that this will cost you much more than the paperback. Keep in mind that the book is popular and reflects a 'lower common denominator' than most of the books you'll find in the Religion section of a bookstore. "It's good to try something new every once in a while, maybe I could be missing out on something." You'll be mainly learning about the struggle within humanity between 'ambition and selfishness' and 'giving your self over to God'. The monks internal life is described, which is the interesting part of the book, from a religious perspective, because he finds himself in a high position and dealing with many unscrupulous persons. He chooses the high position, despite the ego issues it presents him because if he doesn't, an unscrupulous person will take the position and cause further damage to the monastery and the society it's in. It's interesting, because it reminds me of the situation when Rajasi passed on. It's my understanding that Ma Durga made the wrong decision when she decided not to take the position offered her. There's a line in the book that goes something like this: 'The will of God can be thwarted by selfishness, but it can also be thwarted by excessive humility.' That's a major paraphrase, but you get the idea. The book has caused me to think quite a bit, because of it's unsavory figures in positions of power, how much we need the people who do not want the positions of power for the right reasons, to be in those positions, also for the right reasons. Etz.
soulcircle Registered User (9/26/03 5:37 am) Reply	what soft delicate undying hope you offer Oooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhh ezchaim *Quote:* how much we need the people who do not want the positions of power for the right reasons, to be in those positions, also for the right reasons. oooooooooooooooooooooooooohhh ezchaim Your anguish, longing and relentless love for humankind expresses what every one I know needs.... ..... and pleads for in their most intimate wishes for a humankind that is truly family a day, a life, a world in which we follow the children circle and all the earth is love ..................................jefferson airplane Edited by: soulcircle at: 9/26/03 5:41 am
stermejo Registered User (9/28/03 12:47 pm) Reply	Re: we go to extremes to make a point RP wrote: "So, if you apply this truth to the formula then it becomes more complicated." Uuhn uhn! According to Occam's Razor: "Of two competing theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred." If you apply Occam's razor to your theory it should become more simple. I'm only bringing this up because in SRF's quest to marry yoga and science they entirely ignore Occam's Razor. I'm almost certain you will never hear of it mentioned in any SRF publications or lecture relating yoga to science. Aaahhh, I love the science thing and yoga. Would it were given better treatment! The PBS series The Sacred Balance has done a nice job. SC wote: "i will take your ignoring my post and invitation to discuss non-SRF literaure as a cue to bow out of this thread for now" Gee, SC don't go. I've refferred to a few non-SRF books that should be on a must read list for modern yogis in several of my posts. What happened to you then? I just reread Why Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold Kushner. Briefly, it's a commentary on the bibical Book of Job. I didn't know that when I first read the book. I only saw the interesting title on a library book shelf and decided to read it many years later. Recalling the story, Job suffers from some serious setbacks. Three of his "friends" come to see him. He says nothing to them and for 3 days they sit in silence. After that Job speaks up and curses his situation. The 3 friends then proceed to tell Job to repent that his sufferings are a punishment from God for his unrighteousness. Finally God appears to set the record straight. I don't think I got the story before reading Kushner's book. The standard line states that God was testing Job. I think it was more like...Satan:-) Applogies to the Church Lady. I'm reading the Book of Job in the bible right now. It's very eloquent and succinct. Cosmic synchronicity: While reading the book I remembered that Yogacharya Oliver Black used to wear shirts embroidered with his initials JOB. He always noted what Master told him, "The weary weak and heavy laden ones. That's the kind you'll get as students."
redpurusha Registered User (9/29/03 10:51 am) Reply	Re: we go to extremes to make a point stermejo, Firstly, yoga is said to be both a science and an art, so no matter how much you would like to simplify it with Occam's Razor, there would still be a significant amount of complexity. But if I was to apply it to whether God or some master is my guru, I would have have to say that God in the form of master is my guru. The circumstances this age is faced with however, having so few realized saints, is dismal for the the art and science of yoga to really work, or even be applied properly. The majority of those who have any interest in seeking God scientifically have to resort to printed lessons, or maybe follow some advanced souls, but not true masters, lessening the quality and results of the process. Often, the best way to find success is by simple trial and error. Since we don't have (speaking for myself at least) a master in the body giving specific instructions to us individually, we have to do our best to follow the written lessons, yet leave room for experimentation and following our own intuition and personal experience. There are are many paths up the mountain, some being straighter than others, but their points of departure are all different.
ugizralrite Registered User (2/26/04 3:44 pm) Reply	Well I can pretend for now. Thanks to a glitch in the ezboard this thread got today's date on it, so I read through it and really missed the voices that used to post here. My own posts by themselves seem grotesque without the padding of many other voices. I have continued posting through the storm out of optimism and self-appointed keeper of the flame, but I hope new voices or those of the past will soon build threads as interesting as this one. Moving on is good, and I appreciate its value and understand. There was a healthy consensus here of experienced seekers. I still believe in the collective worth of this walrus ezboard as a compensation for SRF shortcomings to the needs of critically thinking and experienced seekers. A place for healthy reverence and building on what has gone before, rather than iconoclastic irreverence.
WindChimes44 Registered User (4/5/04 10:50 pm) Reply	Re: we go to extremes to make a point I agree ugi! I read these old threads and wish I had been here to participate then. Though I enjoy them now as well. It seems to me that the number of saints and realized people incarnate is snowballing. Also the general level of awareness of basic ideas like karma and realization itself. I find that very comforting in a world where the 4 horsemen are all too obviously present and require a counterforce. For me being interested in currently incarnate saints is not so I can slavishly follow them, but they feel to me like hope and cheerfulness, and I like to read about them for useful ideas. My inner connection to saints I am very grateful for. I remember, but so faintly I cannot accurately quote it, an anecdote in AoY wherein, I think it was Lahiri, but maybe not, was meditating and Babaji appeared to him and kidded him that his thoughts were so disordered it almost extinguished B in the ether. I feel like that! I just barely tune in, but that's ok. I am grateful for companionship and cheerful guidance in my spiritual life. As to saint counting making me feel inadequate: I trust I am growing at the correct rate for myself. I prefer reasonably comfortable growth without a lot of uproar. I think if one can tolerate the suffering, one can burn off karma faster and maybe grow faster, but that is too drastic for my personal preference. (This life at least. If etz still reads here my moon's nodes indicate I chose very drastic growth in past lives.) I liked what dawnrays said too. I think many on this board do not give themselves enough credit. I do not mean we should become all egotistical, but just glad we understand some of the universal laws and are doing some good work in meditation and in life. That kind of treasure we get to keep! Once I was talking with a friend who was not inclined to discuss spiritual matters, and some gossip came up and I was not hard on the people in question, and she said, 'You are rich!' She meant that I was compassionate, which she viewed as enviable wealth. It IS wealth. We are fortunate to be able to gain more of that kind of wealth in our current lives. That is why you will not see me being too hard on SRF on this board, though I would dearly love to see some changes there. They sent me the lessons for which I am very grateful even though I cannot join SRF in turning realization into a church. Churches are beset with what posters above spoke of. Doctrine narrows. Power becomes an issue. Differing views get squashed. Most churches end up persecuting their very own saints! Ugi I also hope to hear from these fascinating posters from this thread again. I am sorry to say that it is true what the entertainment industry knows-- the negative emotions sell. So more arguments and anger creates a busier board even among us. I guess it is as basic as that excitement is energetic and serenity needs nothing whatever.

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